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AlphaGo's next move

deepmind.com

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Re: AlphaGo's next move

#41

Post by andrew3726 »

wiz21c wrote: post #37

The gift Google makes to the community (some games AlphaGo,played ) is nothing. The super tricky thing with neural networks is that you can't reverse engineer them. Once the information is coded into the parameters, you can't base anything useful on them. So it's a super good intellectual property protection... Therefore one more nail in the coffin of knowledge sharing as we know it...

Honestly I think you are missing the point. The gift DeepMind made with the published self-play matches is not really aimed at the machine learning but rather to the Go community. And over at /r/baduk they are appreciating it, as it will allow them to gain further insights into the gameplay. So this is definitely _not_ 'nothing'.

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#43

Post by hyperbovine »

computerex wrote: post #21
blazespin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit hyperbolic. Go at it's heart is a pretty basic game, just tricky combinatorics. The fact that you can do unsupervised learning simplifies it even more. I think there are much better true indicators, such as better translation, speech to text, auto driving, etc.

I think you are being hyperbolic here. Go is in a lot of respect much more challenging than machine translation, speech to text and auto-driving. All of the latter problems you described have had solutions for decades whereas Alpha Go is literally state of the art. It even uses proprietary hardware (TPU's) and was essentially engineered by one if not the most elite ML lab in the world. Their solution consists of an e…

Autodriving has been solved for decades?

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#44

Post by nathan_f77 »

binarymax wrote: post #3

I remember vividly in 1997 when Deep Blue defeated Kasparov, and I was a competitive chess player. The mystique of the game was immediately lost for me, and I never found the passion for the game that I once had. My heart goes out to the sea of Go players now searching for meaning in the game. At the very least we can take this signal as a true indicator that our world is close to being completely upheaved by intelli…

> our world is close to being completely upheaved by intelligent machines, in all areas of intellectual pursuit

I could see myself losing the passion for software engineering and design if an AI can do it better. That would have to be a general AI, and hopefully another couple of decades away.

I wonder if I could enjoy movies or books written by an AI. Scary to think about the psychological manipulation it would be capable of, especially if it lives inside a Google or Facebook datacenter.

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#45

Post by mark_l_watson »

The 10 AlphaGo vs. AlphaGo games are a nice gift!

I have always liked playing through great games, both Chess (using the book The Golden Dozen) and Go (modern games and the ancient Shogun Castle games).

I have some history with computer Go. In the late 1970s I wrote a Go playing program in UCSD Pascal that I sold for the Apple II, and also for a lot more money I sold the source code to a few people who wanted to experiment with it. DeepMind's AlphaGo is a great intellectual and technological triumph and I agree that it is an example of future AIs teaching us and working with us.

A little off topic, but Peter Norvig gave a nice talk a few weeks ago at the NYC Lisp Users Group where he talked about the future of collaboration with AIs and also that the ability to work effectively with AIs, adding human insights, will be an important future job skill.

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#46

Post by mark_l_watson »

nathan_f77 wrote: post #44
binarymax wrote: post #3

I remember vividly in 1997 when Deep Blue defeated Kasparov, and I was a competitive chess player. The mystique of the game was immediately lost for me, and I never found the passion for the game that I once had. My heart goes out to the sea of Go players now searching for meaning in the game. At the very least we can take this signal as a true indicator that our world is close to being completely upheaved by intelli…

> our world is close to being completely upheaved by intelligent machines, in all areas of intellectual pursuit I could see myself losing the passion for software engineering and design if an AI can do it better. That would have to be a general AI, and hopefully another couple of decades away. I wonder if I could enjoy movies or books written by an AI. Scary to think about the psychological manipulation it would be c…

I think I read recently that Google is attacking the problem of deep learning nets writing the network and model specifications for new nets. I will try to find a reference for that.

EDIT: this is not the same article I saw before, but same topic: https://futurism.com/googles-new-ai-is-better-at-creating-ai...

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#47

Post by wiz21c »

andrew3726 wrote: post #41
wiz21c wrote: post #37

The gift Google makes to the community (some games AlphaGo,played ) is nothing. The super tricky thing with neural networks is that you can't reverse engineer them. Once the information is coded into the parameters, you can't base anything useful on them. So it's a super good intellectual property protection... Therefore one more nail in the coffin of knowledge sharing as we know it...

Honestly I think you are missing the point. The gift DeepMind made with the published self-play matches is not really aimed at the machine learning but rather to the Go community. And over at /r/baduk they are appreciating it, as it will allow them to gain further insights into the gameplay. So this is definitely _not_ 'nothing'.

what I meant (which was not clear) is that, for what I understand, if you compare the greatness of the tool which is AlphaGo and the "gift" of Google, then I'm inclined to thing that Google actually gives almost nothing. Now I understand that they don't have to (a great Go players doesn't have to teach for sure) but I can not thing their gift is meaningful. Basically, if I have 1000$, I'll share 1$. But if I have 1000000$, then...

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#48

Post by Grazester »

nathan_f77 wrote: post #44
binarymax wrote: post #3

I remember vividly in 1997 when Deep Blue defeated Kasparov, and I was a competitive chess player. The mystique of the game was immediately lost for me, and I never found the passion for the game that I once had. My heart goes out to the sea of Go players now searching for meaning in the game. At the very least we can take this signal as a true indicator that our world is close to being completely upheaved by intelli…

> our world is close to being completely upheaved by intelligent machines, in all areas of intellectual pursuit I could see myself losing the passion for software engineering and design if an AI can do it better. That would have to be a general AI, and hopefully another couple of decades away. I wonder if I could enjoy movies or books written by an AI. Scary to think about the psychological manipulation it would be c…

I have been thinking about this a lot lately!!! I honestly feel a little depressed. I guess getting into AI would have to be the next step for people once interested in the programming field .

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#49

Post by NhanH »

Cybiote wrote: post #38
computerex wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are being hyperbolic here. Go is in a lot of respect much more challenging than machine translation, speech to text and auto-driving. All of the latter problems you described have had solutions for decades whereas Alpha Go is literally state of the art. It even uses proprietary hardware (TPU's) and was essentially engineered by one if not the most elite ML lab in the world. Their solution consists of an e…

I agree, Go is a challenging game for computers but even more so for humans. However, for computers, Go is not more challenging than translation, speech to text or driving or understanding a comic book. The progression of superhuman play in famous board games has gone as checker->chess-> go. The more a game relies on memory,tactics and evaluation speed, the quicker it falls. In terms of commonly played perfect inform…

10 years ago when I was learning Go. I can beat the strongest bot within months of learning the rule. Super amateur human play in Go AI is barely 5 years ago, if that.

Re: AlphaGo's next move

#50

Post by wiz21c »

yeukhon wrote: post #39
wiz21c wrote: post #37

The gift Google makes to the community (some games AlphaGo,played ) is nothing. The super tricky thing with neural networks is that you can't reverse engineer them. Once the information is coded into the parameters, you can't base anything useful on them. So it's a super good intellectual property protection... Therefore one more nail in the coffin of knowledge sharing as we know it...

Most importanly, it is almost inevitable they must run on a fam of computers basically mean it becomes a service. Can we ever create a robot who can self-learn but with the super brain power locally without having to call a service for an answer?

This raises a question for me : is there currently some public infrastructure that can rival with AlphaGo ?
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