Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#41

Post by Deimorz » Fri, May 26, 2017, 8:24 PM UTC

daveguy wrote: post #27

EternalData wrote: post #22

I thought this was supposed to be a few years away -- i.e beating Lee Sidol was impressive, but Lee wasn't nearly the top player in the world? Wow, this must be what it feels like to be living on a parabolic curve...

Lee Sedol was near the top (#7). He wasn't the very top, that was Ke Jie. And now Ke Jie has been beaten 2/3, maybe 3/3 times. Sedol was beaten soundly -- 4/5 games. So this is an improvement, but not an exponential one. Go is definitely conquered like chess was 1-2 decades ago. https://www.goratings.org/en/

According to some information that the AlphaGo team released earlier in the week, the current version of AlphaGo can give a three-stone handicap to the version that played Lee Sedol: http://www.usgo.org/news/2017/05/new-version-of-alphago-self....

I don't know if that qualifies as "exponential", but that's a massive difference in skill at the game. If it's accurate at all, I think there's basically zero chance that a human will ever beat AlphaGo again.

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#42

Post by cjbprime » Fri, May 26, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

Deimorz wrote: post #41

daveguy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lee Sedol was near the top (#7). He wasn't the very top, that was Ke Jie. And now Ke Jie has been beaten 2/3, maybe 3/3 times. Sedol was beaten soundly -- 4/5 games. So this is an improvement, but not an exponential one. Go is definitely conquered like chess was 1-2 decades ago. https://www.goratings.org/en/

According to some information that the AlphaGo team released earlier in the week, the current version of AlphaGo can give a three-stone handicap to the version that played Lee Sedol: http://www.usgo.org/news/2017/05/new-version-of-alphago-self... . I don't know if that qualifies as "exponential", but that's a massive difference in skill at the game. If it's accurate at all, I think there's basically zero chance that…

Wow, hadn't seen that, that's terrifying.

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#43

Post by chr15 » Fri, May 26, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

This is pretty amazing. It shows there is a level of intelligence that exists above what these 5 can achieve collectively. Scientists have effectively created life when something can make decisions for itself and outsmart humans.

Human intelligence has reached a ceiling and machines will get smarter and smarter. In hundreds or thousands of years, AI will be smart enough to control us. This Go game will manifest itself into reality - it will be a strategic game of humans vs machines.

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#44

Post by Deimorz » Fri, May 26, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #42

Deimorz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to some information that the AlphaGo team released earlier in the week, the current version of AlphaGo can give a three-stone handicap to the version that played Lee Sedol: http://www.usgo.org/news/2017/05/new-version-of-alphago-self... . I don't know if that qualifies as "exponential", but that's a massive difference in skill at the game. If it's accurate at all, I think there's basically zero chance that…

Wow, hadn't seen that, that's terrifying.

Terrifying in some ways, but I think it's also inspiring. It's pretty amazing to have some evidence that there's still that much "room" left at the top of the game for players to continue improving.

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#45

Post by Jach » Fri, May 26, 2017, 10:32 PM UTC

carbocation wrote: post #3

Is playing go as a team something that people do? It seems unintuitive. I'd expect a team of 5 experts to play worse than one expert.

Stealing a comment from https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/6deoqk/team_alphago_...

> Gu Li was talking about previous Team matches, and how once a team of Shi Yue, Zhou Ruiyang and Chen yaoye kept on arguing about what to do, and couldn't reach an agreement...

> Meanwhile, the other team had Kang Dongyun, Park Junghwan and Choi Cheolhan. Choi Cheolhan occasionally looked at the variations to make sure there are no silly mistakes, Kang Dongyun's job was to buy lunch for everyone, and Park Junghwan played the game.

> The Korean team ended up winning.

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#46

Post by Jach » Fri, May 26, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

Jenya_ wrote: post #30

IanCal wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to take this as far as possible. What happens if you allow the team to roll back decisions as they see they're at a disadvantage? How far away are we from an effectively unbeatable machine? Given what people can learn over time, can they learn to beat it?

There is already a system in Go which allows to measure the difference between unequal opponents - handicap stones.

And it's interesting to note that according to DeepMind, the Master version of AlphaGo was 3 stones stronger than the version that played Lee Sedol. I don't know if the latest one playing Ke Jie is even stronger than Master or by how much, but the difference in Ke Jie and Lee Sedol isn't 3 stones.

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#47

Post by sprafa » Fri, May 26, 2017, 10:37 PM UTC

chr15 wrote: post #43

This is pretty amazing. It shows there is a level of intelligence that exists above what these 5 can achieve collectively. Scientists have effectively created life when something can make decisions for itself and outsmart humans. Human intelligence has reached a ceiling and machines will get smarter and smarter. In hundreds or thousands of years, AI will be smart enough to control us. This Go game will manifest itsel…

I'd say human intelligence hasn't reached a ceiling, only that it doesn't grow as quickly as machine intelligence can.

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#48

Post by Jach » Fri, May 26, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #38

31reasons wrote: post #34

This is going to make all the Go players out of job pretty soon. :)

No more than Deep Blue put pro chess players out of a job.

It should be interesting to see how a prevalence of stronger-than-human go bots will influence the next generation of players. Magnus Carlsen relies on Chess bots extensively for analysis and preparation (though not really as opponents since they're too good), how much stronger than Ke Jie is now will be the Go player of the future who comes of age using such tools? And for the existing pros already, will we soon see a large divide in those who embrace using such tools (and studying their games with each other / good humans as has already been done with the Master series) and those who dislike them?

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#49

Post by slobotron » Sat, May 27, 2017, 12:39 AM UTC

CodeCube wrote: post #39

platz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a series of interconnecting drives, shafts, and levers?

it's like the internet, a series of tubes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cZC67wXUTs&ab_channel=super...

At Osi Layer 4/5 that's a great analogy, dunno why people laugh at it...

Re: Google’s AlphaGo AI defeats team of five leading Go players

#50

Post by tokai » Sat, May 27, 2017, 10:56 AM UTC

Have they done a human and AlphaGo vs AlphaGo yet? As I understand it centaur teams of human and computer in chess are superior to computers or humans playing alone. It would be interesting to see if this holds with go as well.