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Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

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Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#41
It's interesting to see so many posts telling "costs of living are low". I live in south of France and while Barcelona is slightly cheaper, the salaries are significantly lower. I know lots of Spaniards and Italians who moved here due to that.

Having said that, exciting career opportunities in south of France are kinda limited.

BTW: If you want a place that is indeed very cheap, look at Portugal (I don't know how's the job market there, but several of my colleagues moved to Lisbon recently and I think they're doing well).

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#42
Disclaimer: I'm from Madrid and I live in Madrid right now. I've created 3 startups. I've spent monts or weeks working from San Francisco, New York, London and Barcelona. My companies have been invested by Atomico, Idinvest, PointNine, 500 Startups

Many people ask me why I haven't moved permanently elsewhere. The answer is simple: quality of live. It's really hard to get the quality of life that we have in Spain (free health care, awesome food, awesome weather, lots and lots of places to visit on the weekends, awesome hiking places, beaches, mountains to sky, etc). Specially if you have a high salary like us in tech do.

About Madrid and Barcelona. I think both are good choices, but let me summarize some thoughts: - Barcelona. It has a beach and the sea; if you are really into it, it's a great choice. It's near France, so it's great to rent a car and travel to Europe (France, Italy). The city is lovely although there are way too many tourists now (you will avoid many areas). It had an ecosystem much bigger than Madrid, but right now it's not anymore. The design community is bigger there. There are more international people living there for 1-2 years, but they usually leave. - Madrid. The bigger companies are here (Amazon has tons of good paying jobs, Google, Facebook). If you avoid Puerta del Sol, the rest of areas are very calm. It has high-speed trains with all over Spain, it's the best spot if you want to travel. The startup ecosystem has grown a lot, Google opened a Campus there (like in London). There are many accelerators in Madrid. And many of us who sold previous companies are already into our 2-3 companies. Wages are higher and the cost is kind of similar now (what they told me in Barcelona two weeks ago). Madrid has more events than in Barcelona.

About the work. If you work in Tech, Spanish won't be a problem neither in Madrid nor Barcelona. In both places you may want to learn some Spanish & Catalan words to communicate better, but the situation is improving a lot (there are thousands of American & British teachers in our schools).

Salaries? Lower than in UK and Germany. But the top companies are paying much more than traditional companies. Let's say that the idea is that you save the same money. A Senior dev can get paid between 40 and 60k in Madrid in one of the top startups + stock options.

Don't do freelancing with local clients. If you are into remote, that's the best way to save money. Remote for a US client and work from Spain.

If you are searching for a startup and Madrid is finally a good option for you, check ours https://ontruck.com/work-with-us/. We are around 40 employees, we have grown a lot (€) in one year and we have just been invested by Atomico and Idinvest https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/11/ontruck/. Our focus is Europe.

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#43
¡Bienvenido! I've lived a few years in Madrid and in several parts of Spain. As I expected, most people here would have a bias towards Barcelona. Barcelona is a great city, but don't underestimate Madrid. It is less turistic, vibrant, and there is a lot of cultural activity with many options in ways you can live. Barcelona does a much better job at promoting as a city, but to me, the real advantage over Madrid is the sea. Madrid takes time to understand, but people fall in love with the city. Regarding tech, what happens is the the job market here is less "efficient" than say, the SV, where salaries tend to be determined by the market. Here you can find very good options, and very bad options.

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#45
I'm a founder in Barcelona.

Barcelona is great and it's difficult to find tech people, demand is skyrocketing. Most of them already have a great job.

Salaries range between 20k€ for entry positions to 45k-50k for top senior positions. Cost of life is adjusted accordingly. Tech people are well paid in Spain and have non trouble living an affluent life.

Language is not an issue. I do all my interviews in English/Spanish. 99% of people in Catalonia do speak Spanish [1]. You'll definitely need to learn Spanish for life outside your workplace: shopping, taxes, etc.

Barcelona is very tourist friendly, hipper and has better weather than Madrid. Madrid has better top level positions (director of big telco, top public servants, etc) and better "quality culture": cinema, theater, etc. That being said both cities are great both in work & leisure. You'll feel comfortable in both. The only thing that makes a real difference is the sea: if you're used to being near the coast, Madrid can be a bit stifling.

Spanish tech is pretty hot but you won't find any unicorns. You can make a great career but we don't have any Googles, Apples or Facebooks. However some big companies have offices in Barcelona: King, Social Point...

The catalan area is undergoing a political process where they want independence from Spain. Nobody knows what's going to happen. In any case that hypothetical independence would affect both cities more or less equally -- if only by different reasons.

TL;DR: Both cities are great. Barcelona has the sea and Madrid is the capital. Tech jobs are paid well w.r.t. cost of life. Spanish people like to argue about politics but that shouldn't be a deal breaker either way. Reply or PM me if you want more details.

[1]: http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/sociedad/conocimiento...

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#46
post #34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Genuinely interested why someone would consider taking a huge cut in salary. Friendly people; easier life; excelent food; nobody shooting you at the shool; Wyoming winters; no coyotes, alligators or snapping turtles trying to dinner on you or your pet, swimming at the sea in april... Oh, and there is the universal, excelent and almost free healthcare also. I forgot it.

Free as in paid with your high taxes (30% income tax on a 80k salary and 21% value added tax when you spend your after-tax money).

Of course, but think that if you need for example a new and very expensive titanium hip, this is gracefully paid for all the spaniards, not only by your taxes. Good luck trying to pay the same operation in USA with your resources only.

The 21% VAT is just a huge error that does much more harm than good IMHO

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#47

Hi, moved to Barcelona about two years ago (from London). Here's a post I wrote last summer about some of my impressions. http://www.freyfogle.com/post/1466857133/moving-to-barcelona In short: quality of life is great, and the tech scene, though still small, is growing rapidly. For the Barcelona I highly recommend you subscribe to this weekly newsletter http://www.barcinno.com

From your post: "I’ve had Catalan people tell me they prefer to speak English with me rather than Spanish"...."My experience is you will have to work very hard to befriend a local"

I think that this summarizes clearly one of the biggest issues: Real integration.

On the other hand, everybody in Madrid is from another part of Spain, and nobody has a problem with spanish language therefore is much easier to integrate and to make friends from different places. As said, the city is a furnace in summer, but is not much different to most places in Spain (including Barcelona). Maybe Madrid is a little hotter, but Valencia's beaches are at 1:35 h of distance in train, and Barcelona and Malaga at 2:45 hours or so from Madrid.

If you want a super-nice summer climate go to the Cantabrian coast, when it rains all day long each four days and you can sleep all night long :-). Irish climate.

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#48
Hola! :)

I was in a very similar situation to yourself almost 5 years ago so I'll try and list some of my thoughts and experiences.

I was working as a backend developer in the UK, my girlfriend was off doing her masters and told me I should do something interesting with myself as I felt stagnant in the job I had at the time.

I'd always loved Spain and Catalunya so took the plunge to move out here, my girlfriend joined me and we've now spent almost 5 happy years about here in Barcelona.

Getting a job:

- I found interviews to be similar to interviews in the UK.

- Companies are much slower in getting back to you and moving you through their pipelines. One company came back to me 3 months after having offered me a job and wondering why I'd had to look for other options.

Working/Work environment:

- I joined a company of around 60 people, don't fool yourself that the work environment will be in English just because the interview was. I personally wanted to learn Spanish but it was still much tougher starting a job, a new life and a new language(s).

- While quality of life is better I'd say the work environment is tougher, people work hard and long hours here, at neither company I worked at did we do a standard 9-5. 9-7 was much more common with an hour for lunch.

- Management feels quite old school, they can be more rigid and traditional than say in the UK. Developers on the other hand feel ahead of the curve, there is more interest in side projects, new tech and trying out different skills.

- Salary is quite a lot lower, I took a 30% pay cut when I moved. I managed to get a couple of pay raises but the ceiling and cadence of raises is much lower. I'd attribute that to the more traditional management treating workers as equal resources and also that back then there were a lot of talented developers around (and less larger companies like King were in the area).

- Both companies I worked at worked in English official but in reality it was mainly Spanish, switching to English if there were non Spanish speakers present. I'd say having fluency is a huge huge boost to your career potential (and ability to make friends) :).

Quality of life:

Quality of life is great, a slower more family focused culture and a plethora of fun things to do within the city and surrounding areas. It really makes such a difference having nicer weather for both your mood but also ability to get out and do more sport or taking long Sunday walks (a great pastime here).

I think most people responding to you will rave about the quality of life (I'm one of them) but let me gave you some things that are tougher.

- If you want to learn and live in Spanish then you are best off in Madrid. Significantly less tourists and the use of just Spanish means immersion will be much quicker. Barcelona is great but due to having two official languages, a ton of tourists and foreigners means that a lot of people will fall into just speaking their native language anyway. You really need to make an effort to take classes, not switch to English and persevere. As my partner is also British we've had to make an extra effort as we speak English with each other.

- Making local friends is quite tough, all our friend are Spanish speakers from outside of Catalunya or South America. Locals are very friendly but they tend to have grown up with their friendship groups and it can be harder to integrate (doubly so as their are two languages and learning both to a good standard is tricky).

- Do not live anywhere near the center in Barcelona, tourists invade the city and really make it quite unpleasant. House prices are also rocketing for renting at the moment.

I now work remotely for a US company as it seems the best of both worlds, I love living here, the people,culture,food and weather all combine to make me happier. If you are serious about taking the plunge I'd look ASAP for a Spanish teacher, it'll be the best investment you'll make! Best of luck!

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#49
post #46
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free as in paid with your high taxes (30% income tax on a 80k salary and 21% value added tax when you spend your after-tax money).

Of course, but think that if you need for example a new and very expensive titanium hip, this is gracefully paid for all the spaniards, not only by your taxes. Good luck trying to pay the same operation in USA with your resources only. The 21% VAT is just a huge error that does much more harm than good IMHO

How do you suggest the state gets the money to pay for titanium hips instead? (note as well the average wait of 4 months for a hip implant)

Re: Ask HN: What are the Madrid and Barcelona tech scenes like?

#50
post #49
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but think that if you need for example a new and very expensive titanium hip, this is gracefully paid for all the spaniards, not only by your taxes. Good luck trying to pay the same operation in USA with your resources only. The 21% VAT is just a huge error that does much more harm than good IMHO

How do you suggest the state gets the money to pay for titanium hips instead? (note as well the average wait of 4 months for a hip implant)

The money came from taxes, but taxes must be progressive. To tax the same to all people regardless of their income is unfair (and to punish people when they purchase goods and services is clearly stupid).

Take in mind also that you need to advance the VAT to the government each three months. Including money that could be still unpaid to you (or worse, that will never be paid because some big clients can blackmail small companies easily in that sense). This is a problem for a small company that is thus forced to eat the loses and lend a money to the government, even if they do not really have this money. Is bassically sucking money from the people that create and maintain jobs.

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