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History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

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Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#41

Post by brudgers »

atemerev wrote: post #22
brudgers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had a keyboard with important keys on both sides of the spacebar because the assumption was that a user would interact with the computer in sophisticated ways such as or similar to programming. Most current keyboards are designed for cost saving or consumption or just by copying mediocre designs that are common.

I write software for 20 years, I use Linux and OS X as my primary development desktop OS, I have used Slackware Linux 1.0 back in 1995, I am a touch typist — but I just can't stay using Vim or Emacs, unless forced to (such as when I have to quickly edit something on a remote machine). Yes, I might be a special snowflake — most developers don't have problems with vim or Emacs, expect for occasional flame wars between…

My comment was only to clarify that the keyboards have changed over the years and that historically, there was a more rational basis for the keybinding ergonomics than it might seem today. Part of the reason that Emacs is configurable is that there were lots of different keyboard layouts many years ago and the design view was that there is no one right way. One of the things I like about Emacs is that the philosophy of many right ways is consistent with mine and I don't think there is one right way of editing text and hence there is no one right text editor.

What I like about Emacs is that I can use it with just about any programming or semi-programming language I come across without having to learn a new IDE or editor. The other thing I like is that the capability ceiling of the tool is so high that I am constantly making significant progress in terms of efficiency. So the cost of learning it, was and is worth it for me. If I was writing Java or C# or Pharo most of the time, I'd probably uses different tools.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#42

Post by FullyFunctional »

krylon wrote: post #35
jmfurlott wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

Many years ago, I came across the term "emacs pinky". I thought it was joke, until I got a job as a programmer where I was lucky enough to have free choice of editor, so emacs it was. My memory is a little hazy on the "when", but I think some 6-12 months after starting at that company, I noticed my left pinky did indeed kind of hurt. Reaching for that Ctrl-key on the far, far left front of the keyboard was getting a…

Indeed, the Emacs pinky got me started on a life-long interest in [ergonomic] keyboards. The best solution I have found so far is the Kinesis Advantage where Control is moved from the weakest finger (pinky) to the strongest (Thumb). I also swapped delete and Alt (Meta) so the thumb is use for Meta as well. Fixed all my problems!

Incidentally I _also_ switched to Dvorak too, but only for that keyboard. Works great because muscle memory "feels" the keyboard is different and uses the correct layout without cognitive overhead.

EDIT: typo

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#43

Post by lispm »

Neither Emacs nor the control/meta keys were invented on Lisp Machines. Emacs was written in TECO on DEC's PDP machines.

The control/meta keys actually date back to Professor Wirth at Stanford. The Stanford keyboard had control/meta then. MIT then had it in the form of the Knight keyboard.

http://www.lysator.liu.se/hackdict/split/bucky_bits.html

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#44

Post by sctb »

atemerev wrote: post #2

tl;dr Emacs and vi keybindings are a product of inferior keyboards used at the time of their inception and not (I repeat, NOT) a superior way of text editing which philistines can't comprehend. Programmers are the worst cargo cultists.

We don't need name-calling flamebait TL;DRs on Hacker News, please.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#45

Post by hxegon »

atemerev wrote: post #23
vlunkr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is holding down one or more modifiers and pressing a key not a similar context switch? Typing 'v' enters a 'v' character, cmd/ctrl-v pastes from the clipboard. There's no logical connection between the two except that you've probably had that one memorized for decades. The difference in vim is that you don't use modifiers when you're in normal mode (usually). Side note: TWO vim modes? I guess you're never had the ple…

Two primary modes, you pedantic you. Control keys are relegated to the edges of the keyboard and easily remembered and distinguished by touch, as there are only few of them. Cmd+X, Cmd+C and Cmd+V is much more convenient, memorizable and logical (X and V visually look like editing marks on paper, for cutting and inserting respectfully; C is for Copy), than... how do you copy-paste again in vim? v/y? I see no logic th…

Just because you don't understand/like something doesn't make it illogical.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#47

Post by submeta »

klibertp wrote: post #26
submeta wrote: post #21

Interesting to see the Symbolics keyboard. As an Emacs user I had reprogrammed my ThinkPad keyboard (Windows) so that Alt -> Control Windows-key and Menu Key -> Alt Control keys -> Windows key So without having ever seen a Symbolics keyboard and without knowing the history behind emacs keyboard layout I remapped my keyboard so that I had very quick access to Control and Alt (= Meta) keys. On my Macbook it's not that…

I used "Keyboard Maestro" for this. I tried out some other tools, but they mostly didn't work or were too bothersome to configure. It's definitely worth the cost, as it made a Mac usable to me, although my keymap is quite different from yours, which is kind of a point with this kind of software :) I was using Linux and StumpWM (a Common Lisp/Emacs-based WM, and Enlightenment before that) for a couple of years, so I t…

There is Karabiner for Mac. It let's you remap every key of your Mac. For instance I remapped the enter key to behave like a Control key if I use it in combination with another key. Otherwise (if I just hit enter it behaves like the enter key)

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#48

Post by rerx »

submeta wrote: post #47
klibertp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used "Keyboard Maestro" for this. I tried out some other tools, but they mostly didn't work or were too bothersome to configure. It's definitely worth the cost, as it made a Mac usable to me, although my keymap is quite different from yours, which is kind of a point with this kind of software :) I was using Linux and StumpWM (a Common Lisp/Emacs-based WM, and Enlightenment before that) for a couple of years, so I t…

There is Karabiner for Mac. It let's you remap every key of your Mac. For instance I remapped the enter key to behave like a Control key if I use it in combination with another key. Otherwise (if I just hit enter it behaves like the enter key)

It does not work on Sierra yet.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#49

Post by dragandj »

FullyFunctional wrote: post #42
krylon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many years ago, I came across the term "emacs pinky". I thought it was joke, until I got a job as a programmer where I was lucky enough to have free choice of editor, so emacs it was. My memory is a little hazy on the "when", but I think some 6-12 months after starting at that company, I noticed my left pinky did indeed kind of hurt. Reaching for that Ctrl-key on the far, far left front of the keyboard was getting a…

Indeed, the Emacs pinky got me started on a life-long interest in [ergonomic] keyboards. The best solution I have found so far is the Kinesis Advantage where Control is moved from the weakest finger (pinky) to the strongest (Thumb). I also swapped delete and Alt (Meta) so the thumb is use for Meta as well. Fixed all my problems! Incidentally I _also_ switched to Dvorak too, but only for that keyboard. Works great bec…

Move shift to spacebar (use spacebar for spaces also) and you're all set!

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#50

Post by RichardHeart »

submeta wrote: post #21

Interesting to see the Symbolics keyboard. As an Emacs user I had reprogrammed my ThinkPad keyboard (Windows) so that Alt -> Control Windows-key and Menu Key -> Alt Control keys -> Windows key So without having ever seen a Symbolics keyboard and without knowing the history behind emacs keyboard layout I remapped my keyboard so that I had very quick access to Control and Alt (= Meta) keys. On my Macbook it's not that…

You might be able to put "symbolics" keys on your keyboard: https://deskthority.net/photos-f62/round-6-the-cappening-t15... Don't make the mistake I did and focus too hard on the tool and not enough on the work :)
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