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The Dark Side of Doctoring

ericlevi.com

41–50 of 241 posts

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#41

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

My spouse is a doctor as well, and I've also observed the issues the author discusses. I don't think your read of the causes here is correct. It's worth reading more about the history of medicine to truly understand what's going on here -- the culture of abusive overwork in American medicine goes at the very least back to Osler and the invention of the modern residency program, and has as much to do with cocaine than…

Agreed, this culture of abuse goes way back, and is as much rooted in a macho "I went through this, you're damn well going to" mentality.

I do think the increasing corporatization of medicine in the USA has accelerated the loss of autonomy and satisfaction, which makes the abuse and overwork far more difficult to take.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#42

It seems like we have an undersupply of physicians. My understanding is that the AMA limits medical school admissions[1] in order to keep salaries artificially high. This naturally leads to overwork in addition to high salaries. [1] http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shorta...

Here's the go-to that I send people to when this comes up: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a...

Ironically, I went there to find the link to the USA Today article that I quoted.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#43
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the go-to that I send people to when this comes up: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a...

tl;dr Federal health spending is the limiting factor. Question: Why do we need the government to fund residents? The fact that every single going-to-be physician must do so through government funding boggles my mind. On top of that, depending on the number of hours worked, many residents barely make minimum wage.

It's needed because the private sector isn't paying for it.

There's no law that says private hospitals can't fund residency slots - in fact they fund many of them - but, as the source you're commenting on says; "[medicare is] the principal source of residency funding".

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#44
Bear in mind this ENT surgeon is still in training, and probably close to 40 years old assuming he started Uni at 18. Training is often brutal because towards the end you are probably among the most important and useful people in the hospital in terms of delivering care, but also have very little control, so of course you get abused. Eg this guy has to write medical certificates as well as perform emergency life saving surgery at 2am and have crushing family meetings with patients dying from untreatable head and neck cancers.

Simplistic supply and demand analysis of this issue is annoying and ignores basic economic theory.

You don't want to increase doctor supply, you want to increase the capacity of the healthcare system to deliver good care (obviously?). Doctor supply is one part of that, but if you pump medical students in at one end and do nothing else, you will fail - this is what the Australian gov has done, and you can see the result here, where trainee conditions are poor (so much competition that you don't complain about conditions, power is concentrated in hospitals and senior drs in charge of training programs and hiring who align the system in their favour), and incumbent physicians like the one that committed suicide work like demons and burn out.

The financial corollary is fiscal stimulus without any production capacity - GDP doesn't go up, inflation does.

As always, it doesn't have to be this way, but nobody is in charge who cares enough to fix it, and all the stakeholders look after their own interests.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#45
So... because the supply of doctors is restricted but demand for doctors grows proportionally to the population, the amount of work per doctor gradually increases and doctors, persuaded by their ethical obligation of care, put up with it as long as possible until they snap.

Yeah?

I just recently had a friend completely burn out of medicine, sell his house, and start traveling the world. He was brilliant, a good doctor, a good person. It's a shame he's been driven out, and so many others.

I also recently had the experience of seeing a young doctor bright-eyed and busy-tailed treat me once, and then six months later see him again. The toll that those six months took on him was visible. He was just about haggard with the work. It's easy to imagine he won't last long.

I feel there's an interesting parallel with teaching. Teaching and medicine both have licensure requirements, both have a strong appeal to people who care and want to make a difference in the lives of children/patients. And in both cases the profession is gradually being taken over by administrators and subject to increasingly onerous regulations.

I also recently had a friend burn out of teaching. She's set to work in a completely unrelated industry now. She put up with crap for a long time due to her care for the children, but at last she couldn't take it.

My libertarian side says these are two improperly functioning markets, with massive human casualties. It's a shame.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#46
From what I gather, one of the reasons physicians like Direct Primary Care is that it is a saner system than what you see in most American medical facilities.

I am sort of a medical system drop out. I took my toys and went the fuck home. (No, I was not a doctor. I was a patient who could not get my needs adequately met and walked away from conventional medical treatment for my condition.) So, a lot of people assume I am very anti medicine. They think I am some crazy who just hates modern medicine.

This is absolutely not true. But I do hate certain aspects of the system. I think Direct Primary Care would be a step in the right direction.

If you are interested in reading a bit about that, I have written a few pieces about Direct Primary Care.

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/search?q=direct+prim...

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#47
post #45

So... because the supply of doctors is restricted but demand for doctors grows proportionally to the population, the amount of work per doctor gradually increases and doctors, persuaded by their ethical obligation of care, put up with it as long as possible until they snap. Yeah? I just recently had a friend completely burn out of medicine, sell his house, and start traveling the world. He was brilliant, a good docto…

This is what I felt when I read the article. It was surprised even the Australian system is just as overloaded as our American system. I feel like a lot of these problems could be deal with if there were simply more doctors.

That being said, it's a difficult profession. Not a lot of people want to do it. Even fewer in such specialised positions as surgery, where mistakes literally cost people lives. There's no rolling back to a previous release or taking a break. Everything that happens, happen on that table with that body open.

Tack on the insane costs, at least in America, for going to school to be a doctor and you also have a situation where few people feel they can afford to be GPs (even though that might be what they really want to be; and the world needs more GPs desperately) and you also have doctors who are now locked into a profession to simply paid their debts.

> I just recently had a friend completely burn out of medicine, sell his house, and start traveling the world.

I don't think this is a bad thing. Everyone who can afford to should really save up and take a sabbatical every few years: http://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#48

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

My spouse is a doctor as well, and I've also observed the issues the author discusses. I don't think your read of the causes here is correct. It's worth reading more about the history of medicine to truly understand what's going on here -- the culture of abusive overwork in American medicine goes at the very least back to Osler and the invention of the modern residency program, and has as much to do with cocaine than…

Every single study of the effects of fatigue on human cognitive ability that I am aware of indicate that A) fatigue can have massive deleterious effects on peoples' abilities to perform even simple tasks, and B) people are generally terrible at evaluating their own levels of fatigue. There's a good overview of a lot of this research here: https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-bac.... I don't know exactly what the costs are for more handoffs; my fiancée is a doctor, and she and multiple doctors have told me they have that same concern. But we have mountains of evidence demonstrating how rapidly cognitive ability degrades with fatigue. The idea that doctors, frequently working in a massively demanding, massively stressful setting, are somehow immune to those effects defies logic.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#49

My wife is a medical resident and the issues described by this doctor are absolutely pervasive in residency. The strange part is, the overwork also seems to be pervasive among the attending physicians who have been out of residency for decades. Not just the residents. As a tech founder analyzing the system from the outside, I think this writer has nailed the core issue: "... a doctor is just one of the many commoditi…

Western medicine has turned into a ponzi scheme. The verifiable proof of this is to have an elderly family member in a nursing home who goes through the usual monthly trips to the hospital from 'falling'.

While Medicare covers almost all of it, it became so nauseating to read the outrageous EOB totals that I tried to put a end to it - I requested that unless the on call nurse (after hours) or physician (during business hours) deems the fall to be a life threatening emergency, they are to be kept in the facility.

They found a workaround for that real quick - it's nearly always deemed life threatening because they are 1) unable to determine internal bleeding 2) unable to determine if a bone was fractured/broken.

The obvious solution to this is to have an xray machine on site, because since everyone in the chain gets paid huge $, and it removes the liability from the nursing home to ship them off to the hospital, the merry-go-round of insanity continues. We have two family members in an assisted care facility for almost eight years now, and between the two of them, they've tapped Medicare for just under $700K. Together, the sum of both their incomes throughout their entire working lives never totaled that amount. This is why I call it a ponzi scheme.

Re: The Dark Side of Doctoring

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the go-to that I send people to when this comes up: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a...

The why is complicated, it seems obvious enough that more doctors would be a good thing. Or at least, more practitioners. We don't need doctors with huge amounts of training to do every evaluation.

True, but the AMA seems to fight enabling other professions (nurses, pharmacists) from taking on roles traditionally held by doctors.

I rather wish software engineering had a professional association with the lobbying power of the AMA.

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