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The End of Men

theatlantic.com

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Re: The End of Men

#41

Post by rubashov »

acangiano wrote: post #6

> What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women? Alternative theory: Society is failing our boys.

Alternative theory: "modern, postindustrial society" means dysfunctional economy.

> Men dominate just two of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most over the next decade: janitor and computer engineer. Women have everything else--nursing, home health assistance, child care, food preparation.

We're living in a country where almost all the projected growth professions produce no capital or exports.

This is really all about a shitty job market, heavy on consumption and health care, not some boys vs girls thread.

Re: The End of Men

#42

Post by rada »

sbt wrote: post #13

being a white male sometimes feels like the entire fucking universe is suffering from some sort of inferiority complex.

Making cents on a dollar, whether from non-whiteness or non-maleness, is hardly an inferiority complex. But hey - don't just take my word for it, see for yourself. Go to a McDonalds and request an item from their 99c menu. When they ring it up, say you only have 3 quarters. When they stare at you, tell them they just need to get over it... and please, don't forget to let us know how it worked out.

Re: The End of Men

#43

Post by rubashov »

Alex3917 wrote: post #37
rubashov wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ignores the nature over nurture reality of the situation, I'm afraid. Genes matter.

Not it doesn't. The Hart & Risley study the article is addressing looked at the possible influence of genes, and found that the maximum influence they could have over verbal ability was maybe 20-30%. (I don't have the book in front of me, so I don't know the exact amount, but it was relatively small.)

I don't know anything about genes and "verbal ability" studies. But the cold hard fact is that IQ is highly genetically heritable and is very strongly correlated to schooling and professional outcomes.

Look, we can strip babies away from their parents en masse and force them into "optimal upbringing" experiments, as perhaps you are suggesting. Or, we can celebrate diversity and acknowledge that different groups of people are going to fit into society in different ways, and it's nobody's fault.

Re: The End of Men

#44

Post by steverb »

axle wrote: post #21
cageface wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A woman (and a black guy) have institutions against them. They go somewhere, and they are instantly assumed to be less competent. That's why these things are given to them - to help out the weak, not to push YOU down. Those things are legs-up to equalise the playing field - you, as a WASP already are at the starting line, asking to get those things is to get another 10 yards. Allowing this for the sake of argument, a…

When the playing field is very clearly level. And right now, it's really not. Go to small towns in the U.S south and see how black people live. And go ask women how they are treated in companies.

Actually, I've seen far more racism in the rural/small town north than I've ever seen in the south. And I have lived in the smallest of small southern towns. It probably has little to do with where precisely the town is located and more to do with what is happening (sudden influx of other races).

Go to small towns in the south and see how white people live. Poor is poor.

Disclaimer: I've only really lived in TN, and NC in the south and rural NY in the north. In laws are in small town IA (which as a southerner I classify as "north").

Re: The End of Men

#45

Post by WiseWeasel »

ontheroad wrote: post #39
sbt wrote: post #13

being a white male sometimes feels like the entire fucking universe is suffering from some sort of inferiority complex.

that's funny, because it seems to me like the entirety of white males have some sort of superiority complex.

As a human, it seems to me like other humans, especially those who identify as part of a group, have some sort of superiority complex.

Re: The End of Men

#46

Post by axle »

jerf wrote: post #28
axle wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. So you believe your life would be better and easier if you were black or a woman, right? Would you agree to be black if it were possible right now?

Were you planning on even engaging with my point? I'm not sure why I should try to engage with yours if you're not going to engage with mine and instead fire back trite gotchas. Apparently as a black woman I'm more likely to get a degree and more likely to get a job, so what was your question again? Deprogram yourself and look around you . You're running old code. If there is still vast reservoirs of systematic racis…

That's basically the problem - you don't understand. You don't understand that black men can't just go into the clubs that white people can, you don't understand that when white people meet black people, their faces are slightly less relaxed.

Take a trip as a white guy to Asia or Africa or somewhere. You are the pinnacle of society.

And we're not even talking Barack Obama mixed race, try being a real black person for a while. The systematic racism and discrimination is still there.

And when it comes to women - how many of your elected officials are women. That's democracy - the people choose the men.

If the world were equal, I would happily say all form of positive discimination should be abolished. But it's not equal - it's still a terribly unjust place.

Re: The End of Men

#47

Post by crystalis »

rada wrote: post #42
sbt wrote: post #13

being a white male sometimes feels like the entire fucking universe is suffering from some sort of inferiority complex.

Making cents on a dollar, whether from non-whiteness or non-maleness, is hardly an inferiority complex. But hey - don't just take my word for it, see for yourself. Go to a McDonalds and request an item from their 99c menu. When they ring it up, say you only have 3 quarters. When they stare at you, tell them they just need to get over it... and please, don't forget to let us know how it worked out.

Thanks for trotting out a heartwrenching example to go with your incorrect statement. See http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/03/08/department-of-labor-..., notably "The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers."

Re: The End of Men

#48

Post by carpdiem »

I actually spent a bit yesterday writing a short response piece to this. Here's an excerpt:

"The problem with "The End of Men" is that it isn't an isolated problem, putting males today and males tomorrow out of jobs. Instead, it's part of a larger pattern. That pattern is the replacement of human labor with automation."

Check out the whole thing here: http://www.intellectualpornography.com/2010/06/one-oclock-da...

Re: The End of Men

#49

Post by axle »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #23
axle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is really that you likely have not been anything else apart from a male WASP. See, there is no institution working against you. These things you are complaining about not getting are not the main product, they are shortcuts. A scholarship is not the normal way of studying, it's a shortcut way, for people who have something working against them. A woman (and a black guy) have institutions against them. The…

They go somewhere, and they are instantly assumed to be less competent. That's a correct assumption for many groups (e.g., college students) due to the effects of affirmative action. By lowering the standards/imposing quotas for group X, that group will probably not meet the higher standards of everyone else. Thus, everyone will have to assume that members of X are less competent. Oh, to answer your question: if I co…

Well, good for you, because being Black in america is a choice. You can choose to select black as your race. Why not do it? You would have the advantages of affirmative action and none of the disadvntages of actually having black skin. Surely the perks are worth crossing that 'black' checkbox in the forms?

Re: The End of Men

#50

Post by thinkdifferent »

Well, for the academic insuccess of men I have an easy explanation: nurture.

Look at any movie, telefilm, sit-com ecc where the main character is a youg boy. He's always a good-looking,athletic, funny,street-smart guy. And at school sucks.

The smart guys are always nerds, losers.

The girls are always pretty, shy, serious and very good at school.

I think that for a school boy there is a lot of social pressure to be good in sports, get many girls and be the leader of your class. They can't afford to lose time studying.

For the "good" girls there is social pressure to be more serious and academically good.

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