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A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

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Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#41

Post by monster_group »

jondubois wrote: post #26
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hoarding during scarcity is quite a sensible strategy, you want to get through the winter season or drought. What we don't seem able to do is turn that off in an environment of abundance. We can't seem to get past that evolutionary adaptation and it isn't doing us any good.

Some people are genetically greedier than others and greedier people are much more likely to get into positions of power. To make matters worse, people tend to like people who are like them. So greedy people help other greedy people. This means that power and money becomes concentrated in the hands of the greedy.

"Some people are genetically greedier..."

That's a pretty bold claim that I am coming across for the first time. I did not know greed has its roots in genetics. Can you cite some references? I would love to read more about this.

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#43

Post by magic_beans »

tekjsraske wrote: post #40
Banthum wrote: post #23

I really wish people would stop using the term "1%" to refer to the super-rich. They're actually talking about the 0.01%, or an even smaller group. Heck, anyone making $30k/year is in the 1% globally. Even in the West, a good (not superstar) doctor or lawyer can expect to be in the 1%. If you're buying $300k handbags, you're way, way, way beyond the 1%. II Documentary works like this, mixing avaricious fascination wi…

I wish people would stop using the "1%" as a global entity. When people refer to the "1%" it is understood implicitly that they are referring to the 1% of the wealthiest individuals in the western world. By referring to the "1%" in the way you do, you demean people who struggle daily making 8 bucks an hour because "chin up, you're in the 1% hehe". You think you're doing some good by making this argument, but really y…

> When people refer to the "1%" it is understood implicitly that they are referring to the 1% of the wealthiest individuals in the western world.

The people making minimum wage in the western world are, by your own definition, NOT in the 1%. They are very much NOT among the wealthiest individuals in the western world. It's not demeaning at all.

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#44

Post by return0 »

So what do you do when you have a ton of money? You can of course spend it on charity or investing in companies, but that requires work, and is not in everyone's interests. There are also only so many expensive things that they can buy in this world, so they buy all of them, and some more, and there is still a lot of money left to spend. Even if they do all of the above, there will be more money left, and the search for purpose and meaning will become more and more intense. Also, due to the nature of capitalism, the rich can't stop making more wealth than the rest.

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#45

Post by zardo »

self-diversity wrote: post #6
justboxing wrote: post #4

> In another, Imelda Marcos, the former first lady of the Philippines accused of stealing billions from state coffers, sits in her Manila apartment beneath a gold-framed Picasso Everytime I read something like this, I feel ill. What drives human beings to this level of greed and excess? Is there some primitive or primate instinct in all of us? Meanwhile, the beggar children in India don't even have a shirt on their b…

What in particular makes you feel ill about this? What is the strong emotion that affects you so upon reading of the wealth of a person you will never meet? Normally when people say this, their tone makes it evident they are envious, but that's missing here and I'm curious.

>What is the strong emotion that affects you so upon reading of the wealth of a person you will never meet?

That wasn't just a description of wealth, it was a description of a crime, and the extravagant purchases of the criminal.

Disgust is the emotion in question. It reminds me of a cat I had that would just keep eating till it puked, then eat the puke. Only the cat wasn't stealing the food, so it wasn't quite so gross as Imelda.

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#46

Post by antisthenes »

metaphorm wrote: post #37
self-diversity wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in particular makes you feel ill about this? What is the strong emotion that affects you so upon reading of the wealth of a person you will never meet? Normally when people say this, their tone makes it evident they are envious, but that's missing here and I'm curious.

accusing other people of envy is some seriously weaselly argumentation that seems designed to deflect away from real, rational, and salient criticisms about economic injustice

What's wrong with justified envy anyway?

Why is it ok to normalize 1 instinctual response (greed) but not the other (envy) ?

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#47

Post by smallgovt »

justboxing wrote: post #4

> In another, Imelda Marcos, the former first lady of the Philippines accused of stealing billions from state coffers, sits in her Manila apartment beneath a gold-framed Picasso Everytime I read something like this, I feel ill. What drives human beings to this level of greed and excess? Is there some primitive or primate instinct in all of us? Meanwhile, the beggar children in India don't even have a shirt on their b…

I think the reason comes down to differences in values.

Values are the measuring sticks by which people quantify success in life. Whether or not we realize it, we constantly measure our actions against our values, and how we 'measure up' determines our self-worth.

If I had to guess, kindness and compassion are core to your values. As a result, when you see a greedy person, you feel disgust because you would feel worthless if you were in their shoes acting in such an unkind/selfish manner.

For better or worse, not everyone holds the same values. For example, some people value 'winning'. Individuals who value 'winning' want to be the best no matter what. There are many ways to measure the value of 'winning', but money/material possessions is one scoreboard/metric. If they accumulate more of it, they feel more self-worth.

Why do people hold less 'wholesome' value sets? Are certain values less worthy of others? Should we pass judgement on people who hold conflicting values?

These are interesting questions. On the topic of 'why', I'd expect environment plays a major factor. If you're brought up in an isolated bubble of wealthy individuals, it's quite easy to imagine how one would grow a value attachment to the associated luxuries.

Personally, I don't think there's inherent value in anything. As a result, no one value is 'truly' better than another. However, some values drive actions that harm other people, and those are worth passing judgement from a utilitarian standpoint.

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#48

Post by metaphorm »

antisthenes wrote: post #46
metaphorm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

accusing other people of envy is some seriously weaselly argumentation that seems designed to deflect away from real, rational, and salient criticisms about economic injustice

What's wrong with justified envy anyway? Why is it ok to normalize 1 instinctual response (greed) but not the other (envy) ?

who's normalizing? Greed is understood as a "sin" (religious framework) or "vice" (secular framework) or "pathology" (psychological framework). Same with envy.

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#49

Post by whack »

smallgovt wrote: post #47
justboxing wrote: post #4

> In another, Imelda Marcos, the former first lady of the Philippines accused of stealing billions from state coffers, sits in her Manila apartment beneath a gold-framed Picasso Everytime I read something like this, I feel ill. What drives human beings to this level of greed and excess? Is there some primitive or primate instinct in all of us? Meanwhile, the beggar children in India don't even have a shirt on their b…

I think the reason comes down to differences in values. Values are the measuring sticks by which people quantify success in life. Whether or not we realize it, we constantly measure our actions against our values, and how we 'measure up' determines our self-worth. If I had to guess, kindness and compassion are core to your values. As a result, when you see a greedy person, you feel disgust because you would feel wort…

> "Personally, it's hard for me judge other value sets because I see so much dissonance and irrationality in value norms, and I'd end up passing judgment on most people. My current belief is that there's no real inherent value in anything. As a result, no one value is truly better than another. I've found that this perspective makes me more understanding and tolerant of other people whom I previously would have been repelled by."

Most of your post was pretty well thought out, but you're likely getting downvoted because this last part just sounds strange, and intellectually lazy to boot. By the reasoning above, any behavior, including murder and rape, can be justified. "They just happen to have different values. Who am I to judge them?"

I agree that it's hard to judge the relative merits of different values, but just because it's hard doesn't mean we should give up and call it a day.

Re: A Look at the Ugly Side of Getting Rich

#50

Post by smallgovt »

whack wrote: post #49
smallgovt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason comes down to differences in values. Values are the measuring sticks by which people quantify success in life. Whether or not we realize it, we constantly measure our actions against our values, and how we 'measure up' determines our self-worth. If I had to guess, kindness and compassion are core to your values. As a result, when you see a greedy person, you feel disgust because you would feel wort…

> "Personally, it's hard for me judge other value sets because I see so much dissonance and irrationality in value norms, and I'd end up passing judgment on most people. My current belief is that there's no real inherent value in anything. As a result, no one value is truly better than another. I've found that this perspective makes me more understanding and tolerant of other people whom I previously would have been…

Thanks for the feedback - I'm still trying to sort out my beliefs :). Edited to more appropriately reflect what I learned by writing this response.
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