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Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

nytimes.com

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Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#41

Post by douche »

jfoutz wrote: post #33
majormajor wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing in film/tv production that cannot be loaded into a truck and shipped elsewhere overnight ... people included. Once you include people, how many other industries would be any different? Mining, tourism, oil drilling seem tied to a set location, but assembling something? Tech or not, seems you could just ship the people and parts anywhere.

Physical stuff needs transportation, rail, river, or ocean. Small, expensive, intensive things like processors Can be made wherever.

Well, after you invest the millions or billions to build the fabs and cleanrooms and other infrastructure needed to build them. That capital expenditure tends to location-lock that business pretty good.

Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#42

Post by NotOscarWilde »

gumby wrote: post #18

What an unfortunately brief article. The reason seems clear to me[+]: there are plenty of science students but not enough entry level "professional" jobs. Hence the long post docs, the multiple post docs, until the poor candidate gives up. Either we need more research labs and universities or we need to age scientists out. I would prefer the former, but who knows? + (but like many beliefs, a study is needed)

It is interesting to note two commonly repeated facts about academia, one of which you mention:

1. It is very difficult to get rid of aging professors with a low output.

2. It is fairly easy to get postdoc positions (but hard to get a permanent position).

In a way, you can argue that point 2 is a solution for point 1 -- with two postdoc positions (two years each, which is common at least in computer science) and a 4-5 year long PhD, you get 8-9 years of work from a candidate who is in his prime at the start and around say 30-32 years old at the end. After that, if you hired the candidate, you would only risk point 1, so why do that?

(I agree that it's incredibly mean to take 9 best years of a scientist while they work for a small wage, and then throw them away unless they are a genius. I think it's also important to keep in mind that while postdoc researchers face an extremely difficult challenge of getting a permanent position, they likely enjoy their academic work quite a bit. Postdoc/PhD are not exactly a "drain" in the same way a factory job might be.)

Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#43

Post by draugadrotten »

lacampbell wrote: post #16

The compensation vs time/effort required getting a PhD must surely have a lot to do with this. Wasn't the hey day of US science during WW2 and the Cold War, when government funding was much higher?

> Wasn't the hey day of US science during WW2 and the Cold War, when government funding was much higher?

It's not so much about the funding as it is about a common, shared goal. Getting all the indians to shoot their arrows on the same target at the same time is quite powerful.

Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#45

Post by trapperkeeper79 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #11
arcanus wrote: post #2

It's harder than ever for young researchers to get initial grants. The pay is seriously lagging industry. In many cases, the resources at your disposal are substantially larger in industry as well. Meanwhile, universities are increasingly run by administrators. Faculty have more service requirements and less autonomy than in the past. Overhead expenses are higher than ever, as well. Furthermore! Tenured faculty are h…

>> ...universities are increasingly run by administrators. Faculty have more service requirements and less autonomy than in the past. I teach one course at a local university. I have near-total academic autonomy but I also have six different bosses, none of which actually teach. A new term just started. I show up at the staff room to learn that I cannot get on the wifi or classroom podiums until I "accept" my latest…

Your last point reminded me of some old days for me. I too taught as an adjunct when I was younger. I would try to bring industry insiders to visit for the Software Design course. Students loved these as well as sessions on how to get a real job. I was a bit surprised too.

Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#46

Post by Arizhel »

laxatives wrote: post #12
arcanus wrote: post #2

It's harder than ever for young researchers to get initial grants. The pay is seriously lagging industry. In many cases, the resources at your disposal are substantially larger in industry as well. Meanwhile, universities are increasingly run by administrators. Faculty have more service requirements and less autonomy than in the past. Overhead expenses are higher than ever, as well. Furthermore! Tenured faculty are h…

There's a massive brain drain to look forward to in the next couple decades, especially in the US. Pretty much none of my best peers went in to a PhD program for many of the reasons you described. One of my roommates got his PhD in optical physics and is essentially living the life of a monk. Its so much easier to cash out for a pretty basic engineering role and get a lifetime (hopefully) of easy, stable income. Many…

>Many skilled jobs are leaving the US

Where would you (or other interested commentators) say the skilled jobs are going to?

Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#47

Post by HarryHirsch »

Arizhel wrote: post #46
laxatives wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a massive brain drain to look forward to in the next couple decades, especially in the US. Pretty much none of my best peers went in to a PhD program for many of the reasons you described. One of my roommates got his PhD in optical physics and is essentially living the life of a monk. Its so much easier to cash out for a pretty basic engineering role and get a lifetime (hopefully) of easy, stable income. Many…

>Many skilled jobs are leaving the US Where would you (or other interested commentators) say the skilled jobs are going to?

India & China, where else? Here's a personal anecdote: my graduate supervisor retired a few years ago, and there was a reunion. His first students did extremely well, they were at places like Dow their whole lives. It went downhill from there, except for his last graduate student, who returned to China and started a contract research organization over there. The government with all its wisdom wouldn't issue him a visa, though.

Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#48

Post by Arizhel »

sandworm101 wrote: post #24
majormajor wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing in film/tv production that cannot be loaded into a truck and shipped elsewhere overnight ... people included. Once you include people, how many other industries would be any different? Mining, tourism, oil drilling seem tied to a set location, but assembling something? Tech or not, seems you could just ship the people and parts anywhere.

All reasource extraction. Tourism. Financial services (tied to jurisdiction). Much of the defense industry. Health care. Live entertainment. Hospitality (hotels). Transport. Infrastructure construction and maintenance. Environmental services. Real estate. Space launch. Government. .... not everything fits into trucks.

Space launch can be done in many different places, but the higher the latitude the more fuel you have to burn. But even staying at the lower latitudes, there's still a bunch of popular launch locations to choose from.

Real estate isn't worth much if your country's economy goes down the tubes.

Re: Scientists Aging Faster Than Other Workers

#50

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

usrusr wrote: post #37
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #7

My dad's one of them. He retired a few years ago. The way he puts it, electrical engineering research isn't what it used to be, because all of the "big" discoveries in that field have been made. So aside from a fraction of the researchers it's largely a technician's job. At the same time, he says that if he had applied to the same school he studied at and worked at for all of his life, there's no way he'd beat the co…

> And that's before factoring in the cost of college now. Which brings us to the next question: can a modern college loan be repaid on typical academia pay?

No.
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