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We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

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41–50 of 87 posts

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#41
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The survivorship bias is kind of the point. An employer can't administer an IQ test, but they can hire from MIT or Stanford. They can't pull employees from the good old boy's network, but they can recruit from Harvard.

This is only because schools are so crappy to begin with, by design. If a degree actually meant something it wouldn't matter what school you attained it from.

> If a degree actually meant something it wouldn't matter what school you attained it from

National graduates can't--and shouldn't--be fungible. Harvard, for example, selects and trains for team players. Its graduates can reliably be dropped into client-facing roles with minimal training. They're also extremely responsive to hierarchy. Their campus tradition champions the Socratic method [1] and deëmphasises individual performance. (The joke I've heard is an A is an A-, an A with a glare is a B and an A with a talk is a C. B means you effectively failed.)

Yale, on the other hand, is extremely competitive in terms of grading. Its graduates are ruthlessly ready to challenge hierarchy. This makes them great for internal situations where you need to inject disruption. They need polishing, however, before being placed in front of clients.

High achievers in a field should be diverse, in terms of how they work and approach problems. This is healthy. Degrees mean something. It's just that there's a lot else that's difficult to test for or assess in an interview that matters. What that "else" is varies.

[1] http://casestudies.law.harvard.edu/the-case-study-teaching-m...

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#42
I had never thought about it, but "legacy" seems like a very defensible strategy. If students know their children will probably be studying in the same college they have an incentive do things to make that college better in all respects.

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#43
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to mention that MIT and other 'elite schools' barely teach well anyways. Ignore this person, they don't know what they are talking about. For better or worse, the 'elite' schools have money. That means they can hire teaching-track professors. These are professors whose sole job is to teach and advise (i.e., they don't spend all their time doing research). And they do a really good job at it. Much better than ov…

>> Not to mention that MIT and other 'elite schools' barely teach well anyways. > Ignore this person, they don't know what they are talking about. I'm not sure that that's fair. Granted I didn't go to a great school; I went to community college because it was what I could afford. But I know many who have attended other, "elite" schools and most of them, barring a few exceptions, told me they basically learned out of…

> they basically learned out of the book and the only "hard part" about the school was a high frequency of difficult testing

I went to Arizona State. This is basically how I learned. That said, the most valuable moments in my college experience were when I made an effort to develop a relationship with my professors (and certain brilliant peers).

The insights from those interactions sound silly in words (e.g. "have your slightly neurotic friend or employee read securities' footnotes with you" or "you can model anything as an option" or "flow separation can be desirable"). That might be why they aren't taught in class. The moments preceding them (missing game-changing information in a footnote, struggling with yet another wonky security, or going crazy trying to control every factor between my computer and metal models) made them memorable. The bigger lessons (use your and your peers' stereotypically "negative" personality attributes as strengths, it's okay to master one thing and bend your universe of problems to look like it, and it's okay to let go of control) would not have been learned, as they were, without them.

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats how university accreditation is meant to work: industry and state/gov agencies are supposed to certify an institution's graduates meet certain minimum standards. Given that university is becoming the new high-school, is there merit to the idea of just having all universities follow the same curriculum and standardised assessments and exams? Like the University of California system, but nationwide - if not inter…

Absolutely. However, because of the current issues there are a lot of politics involved in education, so it's hard to change anything. For example, even if you wanted to implement a "random" system, which is objectively superior for most parents (who wouldn't get in otherwise), it would be shot down quickly. Similarly, a nation wide curriculum would be shot down because it would make school way more difficult for a l…

[deleted]

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#45
post #10

This is the reality: 1. High schools that tend to send high numbers of people to schools with acceptance rates less than 20% tend to be dis-proportionally represented. [1] 2. High schools that send kids to good college are more expensive (either inherently, or because they're in an expensive area). Combine these two and you see the perpetual unfairness of education. Not to mention that MIT and other 'elite schools' b…

Ah, Stuyvesant. I have fond memories of competing against them in regional/national Speech & Debate tournaments. Great school.

Incidentally, if you want another metric that makes the Ivies jump over themselves to admit students, it's placing in basically any extracurricular contest/tournament they sponsor or host. For example, placing in the top six at Harvard Nationals for Speech & Debate essentially guarantees you admission if you have decent grades. For some categories, this is less difficult than you'd think.

That said, two of the most intelligent people I have ever known placed in Harvard Nationals and later went to the school. I can't speak empirically to the correlation vs causation of placing in these sorts of tournaments, but I think those two in particular could have gone to any school they wanted. One was a student at Stuyvesant.

On the other hand, I also knew someone who was a concert pianist in addition to a nationally ranked Speech & Debate competitor. He also had excellent grades and was admitted to five Ivies and MIT. I don't think he applied to any safety schools. He was someone I would consider extremely capable in the sense of time management and executive functioning, but in raw intellectual capacity (such as critical thinking), he never stood out to me.

But I could be mistaken in these value judgements. It's hard to even define intelligence rigorously. I think that's part of the problem with these discussions. How do we qualify intelligence, then set out to design a meritocracy that controls for the nature (having intelligent parents) component of intelligence, if we can only limit the nurture aspects (socioeconomic and parenting)?

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#46
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to mention that MIT and other 'elite schools' barely teach well anyways. Ignore this person, they don't know what they are talking about. For better or worse, the 'elite' schools have money. That means they can hire teaching-track professors. These are professors whose sole job is to teach and advise (i.e., they don't spend all their time doing research). And they do a really good job at it. Much better than ov…

>> Not to mention that MIT and other 'elite schools' barely teach well anyways. > Ignore this person, they don't know what they are talking about. I'm not sure that that's fair. Granted I didn't go to a great school; I went to community college because it was what I could afford. But I know many who have attended other, "elite" schools and most of them, barring a few exceptions, told me they basically learned out of…

As somebody who got a PhD from Cornell I've found that the opinions people have about the classes at Cornell are across the board.

I was involved in teaching introductory physics classes and I was proud of what we did. If you took a class oriented towards engineers you'd wind up with lectures in a big class with absolutely great demonstrations (we had a full time guy to maintain the hardware) and a large amount of material and support available so that a new prof could take it over pretty easily. Usually you'd get an experienced prof who was pretty good at it and maybe even a Nobel Prize winner to boot. On top of that you had sessions of maybe 20 students led by a young graduate student, a lab class, etc. Lots of office hours and the prof and grad students are very accessible.

We also had a (rare) autotutorial class aimed at premeds that works people very hard, forcing them to take each test multiple times until they get a passing score. Students who take this class do very well on the physics section on the MCAT. In particular, many students struggle silently through a conventional physics class and end up passing with a D or a C and have little mastery of the subject. The autotutorial class will kick the same students in the butt, make them work very hard, and they often end up with a B+ and a pretty good grasp of the subject. I've seen students from "disadvantaged" backgrounds struggle with the course but ultimately succeed in a way that they would not have in a conventional course.

A friend of mine got a PhD in computer science at Cornell and he teaches now at a Jesuit college and he was not so happy with the state of undergraduate education. I told him that I liked Jon Kleinberg's new algorithm book and that I thought he was taking undergraduate education seriously and my friend seemed skeptical of that.

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#47
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value for who, the people paying or the people attending?

Everybody involved, I would think: the students themselves, their parents (who presumably care about their kids), and any taxpayers who benefit from having a minority be more productive members of society.

Why do you leave out the entire administration of the schools who receive the majority of the hard dollars? They have the sure bet, the money up front tied to people who will be dragged down by huge loan amounts I would imagine (not everyone receives a scholarship.). To everyone else it's more of a wager in my mind, maybe the kid will do something in the field of study, most of the time they won't.

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#48
Is there a stigma associated with being legacy? As in, do people tend to assume you would not make it in otherwise? Or is it unknown who is legacy to teachers and other students?

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#49
post #10

This is the reality: 1. High schools that tend to send high numbers of people to schools with acceptance rates less than 20% tend to be dis-proportionally represented. [1] 2. High schools that send kids to good college are more expensive (either inherently, or because they're in an expensive area). Combine these two and you see the perpetual unfairness of education. Not to mention that MIT and other 'elite schools' b…

Some of the schools you mentioned, such as Stuyvesant, have an extremely competitive (and meritocratic) admissions process. The fact that Stuyvesant sends a lot of students to MIT, is just as logical as Stanford sending a lot of its undergrads to MIT's grad school. In fact, given how socioeconomically diverse schools like Stuyvesant are, their representation at the elite universities is actually a good sign.

https://outlookzen.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/481/

Re: We Don’t Do Legacy (2012)

#50
post #10

This is the reality: 1. High schools that tend to send high numbers of people to schools with acceptance rates less than 20% tend to be dis-proportionally represented. [1] 2. High schools that send kids to good college are more expensive (either inherently, or because they're in an expensive area). Combine these two and you see the perpetual unfairness of education. Not to mention that MIT and other 'elite schools' b…

you are of course right but unfortunately good teachers don't scale. my oldest is in 2nd grade Success Academy in brooklyn, they actually do lottery ( there is even a documentary about them on Netflix called the lottery) in my view there is only one thing that allow kids to do well in school and that is parents who care. once my son reaches 4th or 5th we are going to send him to a private school, cause thats when it…

Are public schools in Brooklyn that bad? I know they're very segregated[1], but the concept of a private school being of better quality than a public school is horrendous. In Seattle that isn't the case, but that is mainly due to the $10k pay gulf between private and public school teachers, nevermind the benefits differences and religious/of moral character requirements of most private schools. The major reason to go is if you want to be in the clique, outside of that its a slightly worse education for a few grand to a few tens of grand a year.

Portland meanwhile has notably worse public schools, often making it appear that you should pay for private schooling. That being said, quality is still lacking in private schools there, I saw many students left behind that would have learned how to read months earlier in Seattle.

1 - https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-gr...

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