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This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

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Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#41

Post by philwelch »

india wrote: post #34
dmor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's no human right to be educated in something useless at no expense to yourself, and I say that as someone with a BA in philosophy." Rock on, we need more philosophers like you.

Au contraire, I think if everyone with a demonstrable ability to learn and the demonstrated desire to do so was allowed to do so free of expense, society as a whole would be way better off.

"Free of expense" doesn't exist. You're talking about transferring the expense onto people who do create wealth. Maybe it makes sense for people to have an inherent right to medical treatment or housing or something, but an inherent right to study feminism and religion at the $100,000 expense of others?

I mean, we already have subsidies for people who are actually good at the humanities--tenured professorships. Philosophy's probably worthwhile that society can afford to pay for philosophers--and at this rate, we're hiring more philosophers as a society than ever in history. But what's the gain for society in training far more philosophers than we can afford to employ, or in indulging the 80%+ of philosophy undergraduates who have little to no aptitude for the subject?

I won't even get into the bigger question, which is whether religious studies or women's studies are worthwhile for society to subsidize at all.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#42

Post by dmor »

india wrote: post #34
dmor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's no human right to be educated in something useless at no expense to yourself, and I say that as someone with a BA in philosophy." Rock on, we need more philosophers like you.

Au contraire, I think if everyone with a demonstrable ability to learn and the demonstrated desire to do so was allowed to do so free of expense, society as a whole would be way better off.

the ability to learn is not the standard, it is the demonstrable ability to generate value (monetary and otherwise) that matters

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#43

Post by dmor »

noonespecial wrote: post #24
herdrick wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For how long do you think she should be paying for that poor choice?

The question you are actually asking is when should we start paying for her poor choice.

I'm sure the regulators in this country will see to it that those of us creating wealth and value start paying off the debts of those who don't in no time.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#44

Post by philwelch »

hop wrote: post #13

My human sexuality teacher in college complained that engineering profs are paid more money, she had no perception of market value. I'm sure it would go over like the bay of pigs, but if the gov't and colleges starting subsidizing majors based on their projected income, there surely would not be as many post college financial problems and the US would benefit from more engineers, scientists, etc. China is doing it be…

"if the gov't and colleges starting subsidizing majors based on their projected income, there surely would not be as many post college financial problems"

The funny thing is, you might expect the market to already do this. Engineering students can rationally expect to pay back tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, because engineers earn several tens of thousands of dollars per year. If student borrowers were rational and well-informed, no subsidy would be required.

Well, rationality is a tough problem to solve. But before we break out the subsidies, let's start well-informing people. You can start by putting lots of information about income potential by degree program in the mandatory entrance counseling that's required for student loans.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#45

Post by younata »

herdrick wrote: post #39

I'm surprised at the comments here. Yes, spending $100k to get a silly degree is a mistake for a middle class kid, but not a crime. It's a key principle, for moral and practical reasons, that we allow people a way out of crushing debt. Liberal arts and humanities departments that deceive prospective students to keep their headcount up so as to justify their existence are as much to blame as the students who believe t…

Well, to some extent, the major doesn't matter so much as the degree. I mean, I wouldn't hire an english major to design a vehicle, but I might hire one to market the vehicle.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#46

Post by philk »

I can think of a couple of changes that would make this sort of thing much rarer:

a) Force universities to publish[1] data on average graduate salaries after graduation. That way noone can delude themselves that a $100K major in Cultural Studies is going to be anything other than a financial disaster.

b) Stop subsidising college loans. If not for the explicit and implicit[2] subsidies then no lender would have been willing to provide so much money for a Religious/Women's Studies degree.

[1] And by publish I mean, actually make clear to people who apply or consider applying for these degrees.

[2] For example, the fact that it's unusually hard to discharge student loan debts through bankruptcy.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#47

Post by younata »

spc476 wrote: post #38
dmor wrote: post #16

Reading down to the bottom... "After taxes, she takes home about $2,300 a month. Rent runs $750, and the full monthly payments on her student loans would be about $700 if they weren't being deferred, which would not leave a lot left over." How is $850 not a lot left over for discretionary spending when you are 26 and just starting your career? You eat crap food, walk and take public trans and you make it work. This s…

And at $700/month it would take her nearly 12 years to pay the loan off. I'm guessing math isn't one of her strong suits either.

Well, she's 26. by the time she pays it off, she'll have been paying it for close to a third of her life.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#48

Post by DilipJ »

patio11 wrote: post #4

Seen from another angle, she spent $100,000 of other people's money and is asking to never repay a penny of it. This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot the last two weeks, since client work has me doing some calculating from federal data on what the current value of a degree in $FOO is likely to be. (I'm sure you will not be surprised that neither religious studies nor women's studies appears near the top of t…

Consider this from her point of view. Here's a girl, that has never worked in "the real world", and has no idea what the costs of living and consequences of this debt will be. Technically she's not old enough to go to a bar, but she should be allowed to accrue a six-figure debt? Consider if this was any other industry. If you bought a product at a store that the retailer knew would break the second you took it home, or say a home from an owner that knows that the foundation is unstable, then there would be ways for the purchaser to invalidate the purchase. That's because in any transaction, the purchaser has the right to full disclosure of the product, so that they can make the decision to purchase with the full knowledge of the consequences. However, in the education field, there's a certain level of deceit that both the universities and lenders are complicit in: they know that they are charging excessively for a degree, based on the salary the student could expect to get with that degree.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#49

Post by heresy »

All I can say is, I'm glad that student loans are interest free in New Zealand.

I can't understand the mentality that allows student loans to be charged at double-digit interest rates. At least allow interest to be deferred until you start working?

My younger brother is graduating with $70,000 of debt from an architectural degree, lucky for him it's a static debt and he only pays interest if he decides to go work offshore.

Also, I don't understand the disdain of some commenters for degrees that aren't 100% "applied".

You're looking through a CS/Engineering lens, the world would be a poorer place culturally if everyone did degrees for purely practical reasons.

There is value to having a well-rounded education, though if you're going to complain about employment prospects afterwards, perhaps a double-major or prior research was warranted.

Re: This Woman Has $97K in Student Loans. Who's to Blame?

#50

Post by robryan »

liedra wrote: post #32
robryan wrote: post #9

It was her decision to take the loans and go to that particular college. Now it was probably the wrong one but she decided on it and would have been able to see where the debt was taking her if she looked into it properly, the terms of these loans haven't changed. It goes back to the problem of people perceiving the value for money all wrong, would you pay 5 to 10 times more for a similar functioning car just based o…

It's a bit close to home since I did a PhD in a "useless" area (philosophy) but my area of philosophy happens to be very popular at the moment in industry as well as university so it's more likely that I'd get a job (I do technology ethics). However, I have a friend who did a PhD in gender studies and is having a bit of trouble finding a permanent position (she tutors at university level). Mind you, unlike me, she wa…

It's true that there needs to be people in these areas and I don't think people should be discouraged from obtaining these degrees if they are really passionate about them. It's just they need to sit down before they start and assess if they are realistically going to be able to pay for what they are signing up for in the long run.

The system may well suck but it's no good signing up for it all then crying fowl about the system at the end of the process.

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