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NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

nist.gov

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Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#41

Post by danbruc »

platz wrote: post #38
danbruc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was especially responding to this part. This (intuitively) makes more sense to me than saying "information traveled" and "action at a distance" You can not get away from non-locality in quantum mechanics. Because the outcome is only determined when a measurement is performed, this »information« has to travel to the entangled partner when the measurement is made. And this must happen instantaneously. In the classica…

> You can not get away from non-locality in quantum mechanics. I didn't/am not claiming that the effects are local. > only determined at the time of the measurement... Before that measurement the electron had no definite spin along this axis. That is what I'm saying as well. I didn't claim otherwise.

Well, then I just misunderstood you. I should probably better have quoted this sentence in my last comment.

So to me, that doesn't suggest that something "traveled" to the other box, just like in the Classical version.

I read this as you saying nothing travels from the measurement to the entangled partner. But this is what happens, »Someone just looked inside me and saw heads, please show tails when someone looks inside you!« travels from the measurement to the entangled partner. And if that happens instantaneously, then this is a non-local effect.

That is why I thought you wanted to say nothing travels, neither slowly nor instantaneously and therefore non-locally.

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#42

Post by M_Grey »

mirimir wrote: post #40
M_Grey wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, when you say that you parted ways, did you go over to something like deBB?

Biology :)

Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense; big warm systems that are still fascinating, but definitely not dominated by QM.

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#43

Post by intrasight »

danbruc wrote: post #8
btilly wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea works like this. A pair of particles is entangled then separated to positions L and L'. At L we can observe A or B. At L' we can observe A' or B'. Until the moment of observation, it is indeterminate which. L and L' are too far apart and close in time for information to be communicated by light. The point of the EPR experiment is that when we observe A at L we will observe A' at L'. And when we observe B at…

General Relativity is an inherently local theory. QM is inherently nonlocal. In decades of trying, nobody has figured out how to come up with a theory that bridges them. But to add, there are at least ideas, it is not the case that we made no progress at all. I would like to highlight the ER=EPR conjecture [1] by Leonard Susskind and Juan Maldacena. It roughly states that entangled particles are connected by worm hol…

You don't need a wormhole, as there are no particles, and therefore nothing is "separated".

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#44

Post by mirimir »

M_Grey wrote: post #42
mirimir wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biology :)

Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense; big warm systems that are still fascinating, but definitely not dominated by QM.

Yeah. But in retrospect, QM chaos seems to underlie a lot of biology, from evolution to neural development to immune response. But there's been no need to think much about QM except as a source of randomness. So far, anyway.

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#45

Post by chakalakasp »

One of the more head exploding experiments I've seen regarding entanglement is this one:

https://youtu.be/u9bXolOFAB8

By all apparences, it seems to violate causality. It's one of those things that make you suddenly stop and bemusedly wonder if maybe we've finally found a kludge in the Universe's code.

edit BTW, if you'd like to know more about this experiment and why it has ridiculous implications, check this PBS clip: https://youtu.be/8ORLN_KwAgs

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#46

Post by nonbel »

danbruc wrote: post #25
nonbel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, > "Charlie would ask Bob to eat the pear" This seems to be the key part. So when they run experiments on this, a certain result can be forced? > "The important part is that Bob does not leave the room with predetermined fruit." Right, is this aspect measured somehow or only inferred from the theory?

I tried to set this straight in my comment. Charlie does not get to choose the fruit, the fruit is chosen at random. I just allowed Charlie to make the choice to emphasize that the choice happens outside of the room. Had I just said the choice happens at random, then it would not be obvious why this random choice could not also be made in the room with Alice. But then we were back at Bob leaving the room with either…

I think, as others have pointed out, these analogies just aren't perfect enough. Do you know where I can find a data source for one of these tests? I checked a few recent papers from wikipedia but they only reported (very high level) summary statistics.

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#47

Post by M_Grey »

mirimir wrote: post #44
M_Grey wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense; big warm systems that are still fascinating, but definitely not dominated by QM.

Yeah. But in retrospect, QM chaos seems to underlie a lot of biology, from evolution to neural development to immune response. But there's been no need to think much about QM except as a source of randomness. So far, anyway.

Fingers crossed At the very least, if QM emerges into your end of things, it should do so in clearly defined ways, and at scales/energies which have some hope of being probed.

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#48

Post by danbruc »

intrasight wrote: post #43
danbruc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General Relativity is an inherently local theory. QM is inherently nonlocal. In decades of trying, nobody has figured out how to come up with a theory that bridges them. But to add, there are at least ideas, it is not the case that we made no progress at all. I would like to highlight the ER=EPR conjecture [1] by Leonard Susskind and Juan Maldacena. It roughly states that entangled particles are connected by worm hol…

You don't need a wormhole, as there are no particles, and therefore nothing is "separated".

I have no idea what you mean, there are obviously particles, we have an entire standard model full of them.

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#49

Post by mirimir »

M_Grey wrote: post #47
mirimir wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. But in retrospect, QM chaos seems to underlie a lot of biology, from evolution to neural development to immune response. But there's been no need to think much about QM except as a source of randomness. So far, anyway.

Fingers crossed At the very least, if QM emerges into your end of things, it should do so in clearly defined ways, and at scales/energies which have some hope of being probed.

I do love Stephenson's Anathem :)

Re: NIST Physicists Show Ion Pairs Perform Enhanced 'Spooky Action'

#50

Post by intrasight »

danbruc wrote: post #48
intrasight wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a wormhole, as there are no particles, and therefore nothing is "separated".

I have no idea what you mean, there are obviously particles, we have an entire standard model full of them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12377393

My understanding is that there is a growing consensus on this

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