A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple

#41

Post by hiisukun » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 6:07 AM UTC

wheelerwj wrote: post #3

this topic has been beaten to death to the point that there isn't a lot to comment on anymore. But it's still a critical issue (even in 2017). so, this is me, upvoting for visibility. also, id go so far as to say that while we should have the right to repair/hack our own devices, I think legally requiring the producer supply OEM parts is a bit of a stretch. Should I be able to fix my tractor, absolutely. But I don't…

I did a ctrl+f for 'environment' and didn't see anything.

So, this is me replying to say that government regulation might be seen as good or evil depending on your point of view and the context, but I hope members from both sides would agree that the health of the environment is rarely a consideration in businesses.

Not being able to repair something sucks for the environment, because people will throw the whole thing away (like a phone), when just a small part is broken (for example, the microphone!). Sometimes an external (not-naturally-market-occuring) stimulus is required to incentivize things like repair.

Re: A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple

#42

Post by wheelerwj » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 7:52 AM UTC

0xfeba wrote: post #26

zardo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... the EPA might not weigh in this time. They require 'tamper resistant' emission control systems. Making it easy for customers to change the software could put you in a bad situation. Essentially, the same one VW is in, a $35,000 per vehicle fine.

I've never heard of an individual being fined for removing/disabling emissions equipment, only businesses. Have you?

lots of car owners are fined or have their vehicle licenses removes or suspended for failing to maintain smog emissions standards.

Re: A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple

#43

Post by gambiting » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 12:29 PM UTC

hiisukun wrote: post #41

wheelerwj wrote: post #3

this topic has been beaten to death to the point that there isn't a lot to comment on anymore. But it's still a critical issue (even in 2017). so, this is me, upvoting for visibility. also, id go so far as to say that while we should have the right to repair/hack our own devices, I think legally requiring the producer supply OEM parts is a bit of a stretch. Should I be able to fix my tractor, absolutely. But I don't…

I did a ctrl+f for 'environment' and didn't see anything. So, this is me replying to say that government regulation might be seen as good or evil depending on your point of view and the context, but I hope members from both sides would agree that the health of the environment is rarely a consideration in businesses. Not being able to repair something sucks for the environment, because people will throw the whole thin…

At the same time, making things repairable definitely hurts the environment in some way too.

I'm looking around my office - there's about 300 workstations, all of them have a gigantic metal case, the motherboard has several PCIEx slots that will never be used, several SATA connectors, metal clips for the CPU mounts, tons of power cabling just hanging around doing nothing because it has no devices connected to it. All of those PCs will be fully replaced for newer models in about 3 years, and all of this effort to make them repairable and modifiable will be for naught. If we could buy a small system that had everything integrated on the motherboard and required one cable for power, would that not be better for the environment? All the plastic to make superfluous connectors in my machine is literally a giant waste of resources and we could have done without it.

Re: A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple

#44

Post by paulryanrogers » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #43

hiisukun wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a ctrl+f for 'environment' and didn't see anything. So, this is me replying to say that government regulation might be seen as good or evil depending on your point of view and the context, but I hope members from both sides would agree that the health of the environment is rarely a consideration in businesses. Not being able to repair something sucks for the environment, because people will throw the whole thin…

At the same time, making things repairable definitely hurts the environment in some way too. I'm looking around my office - there's about 300 workstations, all of them have a gigantic metal case, the motherboard has several PCIEx slots that will never be used, several SATA connectors, metal clips for the CPU mounts, tons of power cabling just hanging around doing nothing because it has no devices connected to it. All…

Buying new ones every 3 years seems the more wasteful choice, especially when they can be upgraded.

Re: A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple

#45

Post by DarkKomunalec » Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 4:18 PM UTC

Steko wrote: post #28

wheelerwj wrote: post #3

this topic has been beaten to death to the point that there isn't a lot to comment on anymore. But it's still a critical issue (even in 2017). so, this is me, upvoting for visibility. also, id go so far as to say that while we should have the right to repair/hack our own devices, I think legally requiring the producer supply OEM parts is a bit of a stretch. Should I be able to fix my tractor, absolutely. But I don't…

> we should have the right to repair/hack our own devices No people should demand the devices they buy be repairable and if enough people care that's where the market would follow. When it comes to rights I think companies should have the right to sell devices that are not user repairable. I also think consumers have the right not to be ripped off on first party repairs but that's a problem with multiple solutions e.…

A few counterarguments:

1. When their demands are not heard, people use the law instead, i.e. "If you want to do business on our land, you have to play by our rules."

2. "if enough people care that's where the market would follow" - there are so many counterexamples to this I have no idea how you were able to type the words. The 'market' (corporations) will use the substantial information asymmetry and its organizational advantage to steer things in the direction most profitable to it. The way to fight this is through collective action, not by leaving individual consumers to somehow outplay a giant corporation.

3. Patents and copyrights are granted to 'promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts'. Their malicious use, such as restricting the distribution of repair manuals, and preventing the manufacture of replacement parts, could well be grounds for losing them. Demanding they instead be made available for purchase seems like a very reasonable alternative.

Re: A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple

#46

Post by kerbalspacepro » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:19 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #43

hiisukun wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a ctrl+f for 'environment' and didn't see anything. So, this is me replying to say that government regulation might be seen as good or evil depending on your point of view and the context, but I hope members from both sides would agree that the health of the environment is rarely a consideration in businesses. Not being able to repair something sucks for the environment, because people will throw the whole thin…

At the same time, making things repairable definitely hurts the environment in some way too. I'm looking around my office - there's about 300 workstations, all of them have a gigantic metal case, the motherboard has several PCIEx slots that will never be used, several SATA connectors, metal clips for the CPU mounts, tons of power cabling just hanging around doing nothing because it has no devices connected to it. All…

The environmental impacts of repairability definitely have edge cases, but for any machine with a low rate of depreciation (any machine that isn't driven directly by Moore's Law) repairability makes it more environmentally friendly.

Re: A right to repair: Why Nebraska farmers are taking on John Deere and Apple

#47

Post by 0xfeba » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 5:31 PM UTC

wheelerwj wrote: post #42

0xfeba wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard of an individual being fined for removing/disabling emissions equipment, only businesses. Have you?

lots of car owners are fined or have their vehicle licenses removes or suspended for failing to maintain smog emissions standards.

Being fined by your state for not meeting emissions is one thing, being fined by the EPA for disabling emissions equipment is another, much larger thing.