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Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

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Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#41

Post by threatofrain »

randomdata wrote: post #34
csa wrote: post #18

I think that there is more to this story that just "low education low skill men not working". I personally think that this has more to do with the poor state of psychological health at this socio-economic status. Specifically, the people I know who fall into this category have one or more problems: 1. One (big) problem is that they often have an enabler -- that is, someone who is supporting these folks not working in…

Besides, education has never been more accessible. One can sit down at their home computer – or one freely provided by a local library – and gain skills, across a variety of professions, that can make them highly marketable. These people aren't sitting at home watching TV because they lack education. They lack education for the same reason they are sitting at home, which is a much more complex topic, and not solved b…

I'd note, though, that most people can't really engage in self-directed study without structural motivations. After college, I think most people never read a textbook with such ferocity ever again. If you could just dump kids in front of Kahn Academy, life would be a lot easier.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#42

Post by therpe1 »

swiley wrote: post #12
rudrigu wrote: post #10

"... or the wife works while the man take care of kids" Then wifey starts seeing hubby as a sexless entity --- sort of like the son she never gave birth to --- and loses attraction for him. "... it isn't a gender thing. It is a money thing" Humans spent millennia as hunter-gatherers. Men hunted, women gathered. Men protected and provided, women nurtured the children. If women provide and protection is provided by the…

I would argue it's rather dangerous to use evolution as support for theories about human behavior. This kind of argument is what brought us eugenics.

In the past people would say "God says that men should provide and women should raise children."

Now people say "Evolution says that men should provide and women should raise children."

This is progress... I think.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#43

Post by bradleyankrom »

swiley wrote: post #37
IanDrake wrote: post #25

This article strikes out at the end. The answer for the folks who have given up looking for a job isn't easier access to college as suggested. When someone drops out of high school it's not because they had too few choices to go to college, it's because they didn't see any value in the education they were already getting. We need more vocational education and it needs to start earlier in life. They should also teach…

I think even better would be to make education completely voluntary. This would help highlight the benefits so that the people who don't value it could make better choices.

For minors, the decision whether or not to enroll in school would be left up to the parents, which isn't always ideal for the kid or the community (see, for example, the vaxxer movement).

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#44

Post by rudrigu »

marchenko wrote: post #22
rudrigu wrote: post #10

"... or the wife works while the man take care of kids" Then wifey starts seeing hubby as a sexless entity --- sort of like the son she never gave birth to --- and loses attraction for him. "... it isn't a gender thing. It is a money thing" Humans spent millennia as hunter-gatherers. Men hunted, women gathered. Men protected and provided, women nurtured the children. If women provide and protection is provided by the…

Gathered/trapped (female contributed) foods provided approximately 50% of average caloric intake in most forager societies outside of the Arctic. And there are a lot of interesting social rules about the sharing of hunted meat (highly desirable but less reliable). Men do have to be willing to put skin in the game and contribute in some significant (sometimes risky) way to be considered an acceptable mate, though.

Men cannot give birth, so they are more expendable and are given risky tasks, like hunting and protecting the tribe from other tribes. The average 20 year old woman is much more valuable than the average 20 year old man.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#45

Post by jack9 »

NumberSix wrote: post #15

The explanation is that the government massages unemployment figures to make the economy look better than it is. The government has been doing this for decades, under Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives. Unemployment is one of the most widely watched and therefor political numbers; anyone who is in power wants it to look as good as possible. One of the tactics to make the official unemployment rates…

It's shocking, just plain shocking, how short people's memories are, in regards to their own governmental details. The manipulations to deflate the unemployment numbers, I was cognizant of in high school, have never stopped. New techniques come up every administration (seemingly every year). It's like how "the tech industry innovation value" is now added to the UDP arbitrarily. Smoke and mirrors. Google "US employed population" then click "What percentage of the US population is working?" -

What percentage of the US population is working?

According to the October jobs report, the seasonally adjusted employment-to-population ratio was 59.2% last month, one percentage point higher than it was a year earlier. Over that same period, the “official” unemployment rate fell from a seasonally adjusted 7.2% to 5.8%.Nov 7, 2014

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#46

Post by woodruffw »

rudrigu wrote: post #14
swiley wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it's rather dangerous to use evolution as support for theories about human behavior. This kind of argument is what brought us eugenics.

That is as valid as creationism. Please abstain from such worthless platitudinous statements.

Your argument amounts to an appeal to nature, and appeals to nature are suspect for two (immediate) reasons:

* Humans are capable of rational activity, and have no need to appeal to our development for moral justification.

* What happened in our development (that which was) has absolutely no bearing on what we ought to do based on what currently is. We have strong archaeological and anthropological evidence that early humans cannibalized and murdered each other, yet we intuitively understand that those acts do not justify contemporary ones.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#47

Post by dukeluke »

randomdata wrote: post #34
csa wrote: post #18

I think that there is more to this story that just "low education low skill men not working". I personally think that this has more to do with the poor state of psychological health at this socio-economic status. Specifically, the people I know who fall into this category have one or more problems: 1. One (big) problem is that they often have an enabler -- that is, someone who is supporting these folks not working in…

Besides, education has never been more accessible. One can sit down at their home computer – or one freely provided by a local library – and gain skills, across a variety of professions, that can make them highly marketable. These people aren't sitting at home watching TV because they lack education. They lack education for the same reason they are sitting at home, which is a much more complex topic, and not solved b…

You act like lower-class "uneducated" men _should_ be unable to get a job. That's a bit messed up in my opinion. At a time of unparalleled wealth, all classes should be prospering.

Also, I say "education" in quotes because today in an age where anyone can learn anything on the internet, a lack of degree does not mean a lack of education. A degree just shows you're willing to be compliant and follow an arbitrary education system for years just to improve your social status. It doesn't mean you're unable to learn.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#48

Post by [deleted] »

rudrigu wrote: post #29
thrownblown wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my marriage, I bring home the bacon with a small SaaS and the wife is in graduate school. We split the raising of our child 50-50. I like it just fine. She doesn't. She's admittedly jealous of how much time I spend with my son, she resents having to continue on her career path and not being able to be a stay-t-home mom. She doesn't understand why I would rather raise my son than work a real programming job. We are…

Perhaps a few decades from now, saner people will arrive at the realization that a woman's first career should be motherhood. A woman's best years should be for her children, not her employer.

[deleted]

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#49

Post by rrggrr »

"We will have to write off one to two entire generations". This from one industrial client who manages a workforce in the rural and suburban south. Why? The skills gap. Drug abuse, particularly meth. Competition from disability, welfare and black market income sources. I've heard similar from other clients. Their contempt for politicians stems largely from their perceptions that rural/middle America has been left to rot as big cities and technology centers thrive. The recent election in the US should have been viewed by both sides as the mother of all wake-up calls for Congress and the President to deliver results. Instead... outright political civil war with both sides having blame.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#50

Post by xt00 »

csa wrote: post #18

I think that there is more to this story that just "low education low skill men not working". I personally think that this has more to do with the poor state of psychological health at this socio-economic status. Specifically, the people I know who fall into this category have one or more problems: 1. One (big) problem is that they often have an enabler -- that is, someone who is supporting these folks not working in…

I grew up in a small town with some people like this and I think what you are observing is actually a hindsight view of the situation. The vast majority of the people were unable to get a job for some reason and then moved back home to ya know avoid starving. Then on your second point many of these people did not start out with a bad attitude but end up feeling like they constantly are struggling due to others treating them badly in jobs -- often due to a lack of skills or education. Then finally many of these people become depressed about their life situation and end up taking drugs to avoid dealing with how their life is not going in a good direction.

So while the things you mention can likely be true, the behaviors you are talking about are very much related to people having difficulties in their 20s finding jobs and potentially getting laid off or fired and then struggling to get a new job. Basically my thought is that many of these people need some place that will really "help" them. Meaning that they need a type of job that will give them a good chance and allow them to make mistakes. Then help them get off drugs or other things that are hindering them.

I really like Germany's trade school concept. There are tons of people who could do those jobs well and if you give them a shot to do that at a young age you give them a marketable skill. Some people just honestly don't do well in a super academic environment.

I think the government would be very smart to say lets make it practically free to have people in various areas hard hit to do some trade skills programs.

We as a society benefit if there are more plumbers and welders and carpenters.

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