Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 155 posts

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#41

Post by cryoshon »

cgriswald wrote: post #33
cryoshon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But I think most peoples reaction is just to say "Yeah! that's totally what those other people do that our side never does because we're right.". to guard against this, as soon as i am aware of a catchphrase or common talking point, i mentally deconstruct it and find the truth. frighteningly, the most commonly repeated verbiages are, should we say, misleading. but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the…

> but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the truth into your ear: the "two sides" are unequal in their abilities for evaluative thought, self righteous zealotry, and dogmatism. an honest attempt at critical evaluation will go nowhere if your evaluating apparatus is garbage. The very fact that both sides are convinced there are two sides suggests this is a false statement. The "sides", really the false d…

in reality there area bajillion sides. it's just an easy construct that people will understand at least two of those.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#42

Post by tunap »

Xeoncross wrote: post #21
zaque1213 wrote: post #7

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

So how do propose we pick "the truth"? This is the problem we now face: Truth has been labeled relative.

Parse the wording of the statement(s) in question. Look for lapses existing between the actual language of a message and it's intended result. Wordsmith's are expert at saying nothing substantial while allowing(encouraging) the audience to perceive or project their biases to said message.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#43

Post by losteverything »

Xeoncross wrote: post #21
zaque1213 wrote: post #7

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

So how do propose we pick "the truth"? This is the problem we now face: Truth has been labeled relative.

1. Admission. "I did it" is one way. (Thinking of caught on camera) - after admission often the search for truth stops.

As an aside one strong component of a couples ability to coexist is just this: how do they interpret relative truths. And how do they gain input for truth moments.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#44

Post by schoen »

gizmo wrote: post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

Richard Stallman is another example of someone who gives the same handful of speeches over and over (many times in almost exactly the same words). I've heard him describe over and over again the wastefulness of not being able to write software to interact with a university printer because the printer manufacturer choose to keep the necessary details secret.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#46

Post by schoen »

losteverything wrote: post #43
Xeoncross wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do propose we pick "the truth"? This is the problem we now face: Truth has been labeled relative.

1. Admission. "I did it" is one way. (Thinking of caught on camera) - after admission often the search for truth stops. As an aside one strong component of a couples ability to coexist is just this: how do they interpret relative truths. And how do they gain input for truth moments.

> after admission often the search for truth stops

There is also a phenomenon of false confessions, which sometimes has to do with psychological factors and sometimes with incentives like people being punished less harshly when they accept a plea bargain.

Since this subthread is talking about Orwell, I can point out that in Orwell's most famous work the authorities were very keen to obtain false confessions.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#47

Post by aptwebapps »

xapata wrote: post #11
lacampbell wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have. I'm not going to mention which ones as that would cheapen the general message, which is bigger than politics. And yes, I no longer believe them.

No it wouldn't cheapen the message, it would illustrate it. I'm also curious which ones.

'Cheapen' might not be the right word but it wouldn't certainly tend to hijack it. As soon as you get specific people start debating the specifics.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#48

Post by erik14th »

CoryG89 wrote: post #29
gizmo wrote: post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that all persuasion happens through repetition. Maybe I'm a bit full of myself, but I like to think that with sound enough logic, I could be persuaded from my position by hearing an argument only once. That would probably be the distinction I would draw between persuasion in general and indoctrination / brainwashing. Of course, generally indoctrinat…

The "brainwashing" part is not related to the repetition, but the way you "acquire" the information, "acquire" on the sense of taking it for yourself. If you learn something through repetition, it's a good thing, it is learning. If you're fooled by repetition, then it's brainwashing. Also important to note, that quite often, the one that fools you is yourself. Now to distinct between "being fooled" and "learning". I would say that learning comprises understanding, while being fooled only comprises agreement. Thing is, defining "real understanding" is a pretty hard problem.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#49

Post by gizmo »

CoryG89 wrote: post #29
gizmo wrote: post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that all persuasion happens through repetition. Maybe I'm a bit full of myself, but I like to think that with sound enough logic, I could be persuaded from my position by hearing an argument only once. That would probably be the distinction I would draw between persuasion in general and indoctrination / brainwashing. Of course, generally indoctrinat…

Learning is repetition. Exercises. Flash cards. Midterms followed by exams. You either hear the argument once and you repeat it to yourself, or you get the argument spoon fed multiple times, but the bottom line is the same. Without repetition there is no memorization or internalization, and no learning can take place.

Phrasing the challenge as "sound enough logic" puts the burden of proof in the wrong place. It implies that whenever you're not persuaded it's the fault of the other person for not being persuasive enough. That's the opposite of open-mindedness. It is exactly because of the presumption that your current beliefs are true that you won't change your mind as easily as you might think. Even Scientologists say they'll leave the church if somebody could just provide them with evidence it's all baloney, but it's a standard of proof nobody can meet.

When I say all persuasion is repetition, it's really not an overstatement. Maybe you're closer to believing me this time ;-)

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#50

Post by theoh »

schoen wrote: post #44
gizmo wrote: post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

Richard Stallman is another example of someone who gives the same handful of speeches over and over (many times in almost exactly the same words). I've heard him describe over and over again the wastefulness of not being able to write software to interact with a university printer because the printer manufacturer choose to keep the necessary details secret.

I've never seen Stallman speak, but that sounds like a similar situation to this anecdote from Nottingham in the 80s:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwNKpDUkiE

It's a somewhat tedious story but it's all about the freedom to control your own hardware.

Post reply on HN