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India floats the idea of a universal basic income

economist.com

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Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#41

Post by felipeccastro »

yarou wrote: post #20
civilian wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the same. This isn't trying to break the rules of physics. It's just a very large welfare program that would benefit from not having a bureaucracy behind it. And it would rely on the theory that enough people will still want work, so that they can afford luxuries, live where they want to, and get other trappings of social status.

Sounds like living in a libertarian paradise. Except if you get stabbed and your doctor doesn't take your particular private healthcare plan. Then you bleed out while singing the praises of deregulation.

How is a scenario where the people is even more dependent of the government for subsistence a libertarian paradise?

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#42

Post by notahacker »

hsuresh wrote: post #19
brilliantcode wrote: post #15

I feel like universal basic income will only work in progressive societies that have gotten used to various social programs before. They might go bankrupt long before any of it's population actually receive money due to corruption. In country's with high poverty level where people don't possess the minimal quality of life, I highly doubt the spirit of basic income will even be recognized but seen more of a cash grab…

> I feel like universal basic income will only work in progressive societies that have gotten used to various social programs before. They might go bankrupt long before any of it's population actually receive money due to corruption. I actually think it is the opposite. UBI might work better precisely because corruption prevents other welfare schemes reaching the target population. At least in theory, the direct cash…

But as the article outlines, the schemes that India needs to cut to fund it comprise half of India's annual budget - which means less spending on things India desperately lacks like infrastructure - and each recipient gets $113 per annum, which is a undoubtedly a real boon to some of them but really doesn't go that far towards accelerating growth in India. And the corrupt are not going to find it any harder to siphon funds from unworldly, unbanked and often illiterate people living (or better still, recently deceased) in remote villages than they are to siphon off funds spent in other ways. Unless and until India gets dumbphone-based banking, the sheer logistics of dispensing money to a billion people is pretty mindboggling.

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#43

Post by NeutronBoy »

felipeccastro wrote: post #38

I used to think a universal basic income would make sense, especially in developed countries, only for the near future scenario of machines taking ever more jobs. We know that this has always happened in history, and new jobs were always created, but that doesn't mean that the rate of job creation vs destruction will remain the same, forever. What made me change my mind about UBI was to realize that a) human desires…

> What made me change my mind about UBI was to realize that a) human desires are infinite, and there'll always be more work to be done and b) the more work is done by machines, the richer the population as a whole will be, as products and services automated tend to be cheaper.

I agree with this sentiment. Looking into the (very long term) future, it's interesting to look at a fictional post-scarcity society (Star Trek) (with a grain of salt - it's really the writer's imaginations and what you see in the movies/shows) and see what the impact would be. My key takeaways are:

* everyone still works, or studies, and the culture is that you still contribute to society rather than sit around and do nothing. This requires a significant culture change from our current society.

* They often visit colonies and planets that are decidedly not post-scarcity - they are often poor or middle-class colonies, with an agricultural bent. In theory this shouldn't be the case in a post-scarcity society, but it becomes apparent that there's still a cost (resources and time) associated with production and transport unless you want to be ruled by AI overlords.

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#44

Post by RogtamBar »

harigov wrote: post #17

In other developed countries, I think universal basic income makes sense, but not in the case of India. India has several systemic problems and a significant portion of the population has little to no education. Any income that can sustain a household without any pressure to grow as people will probably hinder their progress more so than help them. For a country with no lack of problems to solve, they are much better…

...developed country?

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#45

Post by umeshunni »

mars4rp wrote: post #5

I guess Iran is the only country with universal basic income already in place then! the income is not much and you probably can't live of it without working, but it is universal!

Don't other oil rich countries (Saudi, Kuwait etc) have some form of basic income for their citizens?

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#46

Post by calvinbhai »

notahacker wrote: post #42
hsuresh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like universal basic income will only work in progressive societies that have gotten used to various social programs before. They might go bankrupt long before any of it's population actually receive money due to corruption. I actually think it is the opposite. UBI might work better precisely because corruption prevents other welfare schemes reaching the target population. At least in theory, the direct cash…

But as the article outlines, the schemes that India needs to cut to fund it comprise half of India's annual budget - which means less spending on things India desperately lacks like infrastructure - and each recipient gets $113 per annum, which is a undoubtedly a real boon to some of them but really doesn't go that far towards accelerating growth in India. And the corrupt are not going to find it any harder to siphon…

Not sure if you are from India or not, but it looks like you are not aware of how banking has improved in India.

Dumbphone banking is possible for more than a billion people (as long as they can afford a dumbphone service and have Aadhar - biometric ID). I say billion and not all Indians, because there's India has all the needed infra to dispense money to a billion people. All it needs to ensure is, if UBI is implemented, remove every single subsidy thats currently given.

What would be worse, is to have a haphazard implementation of UBI without removing subsidies, and people revolting at removal of either of these schemes.

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#47

Post by AnimalMuppet »

umeshunni wrote: post #45
mars4rp wrote: post #5

I guess Iran is the only country with universal basic income already in place then! the income is not much and you probably can't live of it without working, but it is universal!

Don't other oil rich countries (Saudi, Kuwait etc) have some form of basic income for their citizens?

I know Saudi does (or at least did). It was enough to live off of, too (though perhaps not in the style you would like to become accustomed to...)

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#48

Post by mstodd »

felipeccastro wrote: post #38

I used to think a universal basic income would make sense, especially in developed countries, only for the near future scenario of machines taking ever more jobs. We know that this has always happened in history, and new jobs were always created, but that doesn't mean that the rate of job creation vs destruction will remain the same, forever. What made me change my mind about UBI was to realize that a) human desires…

You don't mind the fact that you're just taking money from people who earned it to give to others who didn't?

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#49

Post by meanduck »

Here some official fact http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/data...

For 2012-13 FY, 12.5 Million (1%) paid any Income tax, averaging Rs 21,000 ($350). The 3 individuals in the top-bracket of Rs 100-500 crore ($16M-$83M) paid a total tax of Rs 437 crore ($72M) — resulting in an average tax outgo of Rs 145.80 crore ($24M).

Indian statists cant help but screw the country funders even more. Disgustingly inhumane.

Re: India floats the idea of a universal basic income

#50

Post by hashhar »

RangerScience wrote: post #33
harigov wrote: post #17

In other developed countries, I think universal basic income makes sense, but not in the case of India. India has several systemic problems and a significant portion of the population has little to no education. Any income that can sustain a household without any pressure to grow as people will probably hinder their progress more so than help them. For a country with no lack of problems to solve, they are much better…

> Any income that can sustain a household without any pressure to grow as people will probably hinder their progress more so than help them Are you basing this off of any familiarity with poor Indian culture? Why do you expect "free money" to translate into "lesser progress" rather than "progress of their choice"? Here's a different question: Have you learned more through self-directed learning, or other-directed lea…

Most of the poor (and the rich too) here (I mean in India) look at such social programs as nothing more than cash-grabs. I have known people who make money by registering for multiple CNG connections and distributing them to other people in return for full price of the CNG cylinder (the cylinders are subsidised and the subsidy is paid by the government directly into the bank account of the person with whom the connection is registered).
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