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Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

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Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#41

Post by thilmo »

DanBC wrote: post #35
thilmo wrote: post #30

We've had this in Australia for some time and I think it's abominable. Western civilisation is founded on the rule of law. Obey the law and you do fine, break the law and you get punished. When you start saying to people "Hey guys, we know you're breaking the law, but go ahead and fucking do it in this room, we don't mind, you won't get arrested or punished" Here's a better approach to drug users: catch them, sentenc…

> Here's a better approach to drug users: catch them, sentence them to mandatory cold-turkey rehab, don't let them out until they're clean. Treating drug use as a criminal justice problem rather than a public health problem is more expensive and gives worse results. I think it's weird to ask tax payers to fund a very much more expensive programme (of police officers catching heroin users; of courts prosecuting them;…

The point of the criminal justice approach isn't to save the lives of those who have already taken heroin, but to save the lives of those who might be considering taking heroin.

The harsher the punishment for heroin use, the more likely people are to get it into their heads not to fucking start taking heroin in the first place. On the other hand, if you make heroin addiction a free ticket to lots of health care and attention and "poor schnukkums" then you actually incentivise people who are already having a bad time to get on the heroin-addict train.

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#42

Post by dragonwriter »

thilmo wrote: post #41
DanBC wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's a better approach to drug users: catch them, sentence them to mandatory cold-turkey rehab, don't let them out until they're clean. Treating drug use as a criminal justice problem rather than a public health problem is more expensive and gives worse results. I think it's weird to ask tax payers to fund a very much more expensive programme (of police officers catching heroin users; of courts prosecuting them;…

The point of the criminal justice approach isn't to save the lives of those who have already taken heroin, but to save the lives of those who might be considering taking heroin . The harsher the punishment for heroin use, the more likely people are to get it into their heads not to fucking start taking heroin in the first place . On the other hand, if you make heroin addiction a free ticket to lots of health care and…

> The harsher the punishment for heroin use, the more likely people are to get it into their heads not to fucking start taking heroin in the first place.

Except it doesn't seem to work efficiently at that in the real world.

> On the other hand, if you make heroin addiction a free ticket to lots of health care and attention and "poor schnukkums" then you actually incentivise people who are already having a bad time to get on the heroin-addict train.

If it doesn't give any benefit beyond dealing with the harms of heroin addiction there is no actual incentive.

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#43

Post by booleandilemma »

I used to work at a retail pharmacy and we would have addicts come in to buy needles all the time. On the one hand I felt bad about supplying these people with what they needed to feed their habit, on the other hand I felt good that they were coming to us instead of sharing needles with their buddies.

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#44

Post by DanBC »

brianwawok wrote: post #27
nooron wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you'll find this persuasive? http://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/

No. Just because the war on drugs was started for a racist reason doesn't make banning drugs themselves a bad idea. I don't think people can make valid choices about the use or not use of highly addictive drugs. We as a society can do better than to help people be strung out.

> We as a society can do better than to help people be strung out.

Safe injecting facilities are not about helping people be strung out. They're about reducing harm, both to the addict and to the rest of society, coming from drug addiction.

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#45

Post by DanBC »

thilmo wrote: post #41
DanBC wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's a better approach to drug users: catch them, sentence them to mandatory cold-turkey rehab, don't let them out until they're clean. Treating drug use as a criminal justice problem rather than a public health problem is more expensive and gives worse results. I think it's weird to ask tax payers to fund a very much more expensive programme (of police officers catching heroin users; of courts prosecuting them;…

The point of the criminal justice approach isn't to save the lives of those who have already taken heroin, but to save the lives of those who might be considering taking heroin . The harsher the punishment for heroin use, the more likely people are to get it into their heads not to fucking start taking heroin in the first place . On the other hand, if you make heroin addiction a free ticket to lots of health care and…

We still see heroin addicts in countries that have a death penalty for heroin use, so harsh punishment clearly isn't working.

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#46

Post by mindslight »

thilmo wrote: post #30

We've had this in Australia for some time and I think it's abominable. Western civilisation is founded on the rule of law. Obey the law and you do fine, break the law and you get punished. When you start saying to people "Hey guys, we know you're breaking the law, but go ahead and fucking do it in this room, we don't mind, you won't get arrested or punished" Here's a better approach to drug users: catch them, sentenc…

Or you know, fix the law so it is no longer attempting to lay claim over every individual's body. Perverting the "rule of law" with an attempt to dictate personal morality undermines the institution itself.

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#47

Post by jbigelow76 »

martinald wrote: post #7
xyzzy4 wrote: post #3

They should also sell heroin in pharmacies so people can inject an accurate dosage. This would greatly reduce overdoses and drug trafficking.

I literally cannot understand why this is being downvoted. Prescribed heroin would save thousands of lives and billions of dollars in ER OD cases and the acquisitive crime that this disorder causes. Shame on you HN.

    >Prescribed heroin would save thousands of lives and billions of dollars in ER OD cases and the acquisitive crime that this disorder causes.
If you get a prescription for heroin that would probably lead to addiction right? Now as an addict you want more, so you go back to the doctor but they won't prescribe anymore ostensibly to prevent overdose. So now you have an addict looking for a way to score more outside of a doctor prescription which would still open them up to every single risk that currently exists today. Seems like the end result is going to be the same either way unless doctors continually up the dosages prescribed, no?

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#48

Post by grzm »

jbigelow76 wrote: post #47
martinald wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally cannot understand why this is being downvoted. Prescribed heroin would save thousands of lives and billions of dollars in ER OD cases and the acquisitive crime that this disorder causes. Shame on you HN.

>Prescribed heroin would save thousands of lives and billions of dollars in ER OD cases and the acquisitive crime that this disorder causes. If you get a prescription for heroin that would probably lead to addiction right? Now as an addict you want more, so you go back to the doctor but they won't prescribe anymore ostensibly to prevent overdose. So now you have an addict looking for a way to score more outside of a…

If you get a prescription for heroin that would probably lead to addiction right?

Under what circumstances do you think doctors would be prescribing heroin? Because a person wants to give it a try? For recreational use? Doctors already prescribe (under heavy regulation) narcotics for pain relief. If they were to prescribe heroin, I can't imagine it would be cavalierly prescribed for anything, other to address existing addiction, not unlike methadone treatments today.

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#49

Post by RangerScience »

jbigelow76 wrote: post #47
martinald wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally cannot understand why this is being downvoted. Prescribed heroin would save thousands of lives and billions of dollars in ER OD cases and the acquisitive crime that this disorder causes. Shame on you HN.

>Prescribed heroin would save thousands of lives and billions of dollars in ER OD cases and the acquisitive crime that this disorder causes. If you get a prescription for heroin that would probably lead to addiction right? Now as an addict you want more, so you go back to the doctor but they won't prescribe anymore ostensibly to prevent overdose. So now you have an addict looking for a way to score more outside of a…

I think you're using the incorrect mental model of addicts popularized by DARE, etc.

I mean first -

> If you get a prescription for heroin that would probably lead to addiction right?

Decently sure OP is suggesting replacing obtaining heroin from the street with obtaining it through a doctor. As such, only existing (and new) addicts are effected; you would not create addicts.

Alternatively, this story you have told is already the case with other prescription opiates.

> Now as an addict you want more

> continually up the dosages prescribed, no?

I mean, do alcoholics do this? Or gamblers? Adrenaline junkies? Yes and no.

Basically, most of what you know about drugs is inaccurate, and addiction (and escalation of addiction) is complicated. For instance, the rat park experiments indicate that addiction is a coping mechanism - rats in individual cages experience addiction; rats in group cages, not so much. Simply by obtaining the drugs from a sympathetic ear, you can reduce the dependence on the drugs.

Here's a thing:

https://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decr...

Re: Seattle Is Opening First in U.S. “Safe Injection Facility” for Heroin Addicts

#50

Post by jayajay »

theptip wrote: post #38
jayajay wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't accept that heroin and alcohol are equal in that sense. I would be very skeptical about any sources claiming this equality. Ease of production, pharmacodynamics, etc. Edit: Ideally, humans wouldn't be consuming poison? But, what is poison? It's a lot more complicated than "alcohol is bad" or "heroin is bad". Maybe you are right, letting down the flood gates will surely kill people who don't have control, and…

Prof. Nutt in the UK did some research on this, if you're interested in an objective analysis of this subject. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus...

I am skeptical of the 16 metrics used to rank harm on a 0 to 100 scale.
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