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Why we should all have a basic income

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Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#41

Post by jganetsk »

DougN7 wrote: post #25
jganetsk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claims are misleading, wrong, and unsupported. > Demand for goods increases. Citation needed. Demand for some goods will possibly decrease: like payday loans or bankruptcy law. Demand for luxury goods won't change at all: yachts, private jets. But even the demand for Big Macs probably won't change all that much. Apply the same exercise to a bunch of other sundry cases: buying a house, life-saving medication, buying a…

More people buying stuff increases demand - econ 101. If more people aren't buying stuff, why bother giving them the money? Of course prices will rise. The only way this isn't equivalent to the government printing money is the money comes out some rich people/company's savings accounts where it wasn't being spent anyway.

It seems like you read neither my post nor the article itself. The article was proposing redistribution of income, so it's definitely NOT equivalent to the government printing money. And in my post, I listed several cases of stuff people will buy less of and other stuff people will not buy more of in a basic income society.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#43

Post by bryanlarsen »

prodmerc wrote: post #15

If everyone gets $1000 every month guaranteed for "basic needs", the prices for those basic needs will increase accordingly. And independently. So you'll end up spending that $1k on either housing, bills or food. So you will still need a job if you want all three of those things, not sit around and contemplate what you should do with your life. It's sort of like how the ACA raised the overall price of insurance. Givi…

1) Americans currently consume (not necessarily eat) 3800 kcals/day of food without basic income. Are you saying that basic income will make that number go up?

2) The American housing market is very messed up and far from a free market, so any prediction up or down is very difficult. I predict that Basic Income will cause a bunch of people to move from high cost cities like NYC & SF into low cost areas so that they can live comfortably on the basic income. So there will be pressures both up and down on prices. But point #1 still stands. Right now most Americans already have a place to live, and basic income isn't going to cause people to go out and buy a second house so the effects are only going to be at the margin.

3) According to most economists, inflation is always a monetary phenomenon. If you print money to pay for UBI, inflation will go up. If you take from the rich to give to the poor, inflation will stay constant.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#44

Post by jganetsk »

witty_username wrote: post #39
jganetsk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no sure fire way to reduce the value of a dollar then to redistribute it to people that didn't work for it. The fact that you have to work for the dollar is the thing that gives the dollar value. Citation needed. The value of the dollar is actually determined by: 1) Foreign exchange markets 2) Debt markets

See Laffer curve. Redistribution will make people work less (i.e. less total output), so assuming the money supply doesn't change, inflation will occur.

Is the important part here labor or output? Automation means people working less with output increasing.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#45

Post by Dolores12 »

lisivka wrote: post #27
Dolores12 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If basic income is good enough for you, you may stop working. Some people need more than basic income.

Thank you, captain. I already said that.

I am sorry, how is that a useful comment and adds value to discussion?

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#46

Post by maxerickson »

cocoa19 wrote: post #16
Tepix wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about machines doing most of the jobs so there are only a few jobs left? The value the machines generate would be enough to generate the basic income. Why is it impossible?

It's difficult with a free market. If income goes up for everyone, people can spend more on basic necessities. Robot owners will make prices higher to maximize profit. A few solutions: 1)Have the government set prices for basic necessities. 2)The government owns companies that produce basic necessities. 3)Replace capitalism. All the solutions above have its drawbacks.

If we are literally at 100% robot labor, a basic income could be a resource dividend. Basically, the argument for really strong property rights is that it encourages utilization of resources (and thus makes them broadly available to the economy).

With 100% robot labor, utilization of a resource is purely a political decision. The idea that we should give outsize rewards to historical incumbents for their historical incumbency becomes sort of silly.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#48

Post by jganetsk »

srssays wrote: post #40
jbmorgado wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are taking about "basic" needs here. All your argument then must imply that UBI or NOT UBI, "basic needs" must be denied to part of the population or else they get too expensive. And as almost all will agree, that's not only logically wrong, it's also morally wrong.

Everybody understands that UBI is a solution to meeting "basic" needs, the contentious part is the "universal". I don't need basic income. If I received free money that I don't need, I might decide to double my cheese consumption. If many people like me do this, then the price of cheese will go up, hurting poor people.

What is the difference between money "you don't need" and money you do need? If, instead of receiving basic income, you received a pay raise, is that money you do or don't need?

Money "you don't need" is an economic absurdity.

The only people who double their cheese consumption are people who really like cheese. And if basic income helps you and others truly express their passion for cheese, more power to you. Poor people will eat something else.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#49

Post by nickthemagicman »

programmarchy wrote: post #23

UBI is attempting to cloak itself in free market rhetoric, but it's bullshit. Yes it may "incentivize" some individuals to work, but only by disincentivizing others. It takes money from top wealth producers, discouraging their labor, and gives it to people who aren't producing as much wealth, effectively subsidizing unproductive work. This will make everyone poorer in the long run. The struggling artist meme is an ap…

You're right about the wealth producers!

We need a 100% inheritance tax! That way the wealth isn't going to people who didn't produce it!

Then you redistribute that money to schools and training programs and small businesses to give opportunities to anyone to become a wealth producer!

This improves the entire human race and not just the rich trust fund babies who haven't produced anything in their lives.

I'm totally with you on this.

Re: Why we should all have a basic income

#50

Post by tomp »

jganetsk wrote: post #41
DougN7 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people buying stuff increases demand - econ 101. If more people aren't buying stuff, why bother giving them the money? Of course prices will rise. The only way this isn't equivalent to the government printing money is the money comes out some rich people/company's savings accounts where it wasn't being spent anyway.

It seems like you read neither my post nor the article itself. The article was proposing redistribution of income, so it's definitely NOT equivalent to the government printing money. And in my post, I listed several cases of stuff people will buy less of and other stuff people will not buy more of in a basic income society.

I'm not sure if you're purposefully ignoring the main issues with UBI, but in case you're not: the most important stuff (things like food, rent, clothing, energy, medicine, basic services) will have more demand (from all the people who can't afford these right now), and less supply (because a lot of these are done with low-paid labour - definitely clothing, food and basic services, along with things like garbage collection and construction). This will completely change how the society works.
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