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Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

bloomberg.com

41–50 of 211 posts

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#41
post #17

If you did the study in the IT-industry. What would the result be if you would measure code commits and code quality for a large sample of programmers with [4,6,8] working hours?

I would think you have to extend that to number of hours worked prior and rest intervals. I am quite sure that a number of developers can put out good code is a short crunch that has long days, it is sustained output that I would like to see.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#42
post #11

They're abandoning it because of an obvious requirement? Did someone not realize that in a 24 hour operation that consists of physical activities, cutting hours would require more people to carry the same workload?

Then again, the hours that were cut also wouldn't have to be paid to the people not working them. In a perfect situation this would have led to higher employment numbers and happier employees. However, the Bloomberg source[1] also mentions that pay was not cut, which led to the overhead costs. You are right that this consequence could've been seen from miles away. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-03/sw…

> You are right that this consequence could've been seen from miles away.

Which is why this is very close to just propaganda against a 6h work day.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#43
post #17

If you did the study in the IT-industry. What would the result be if you would measure code commits and code quality for a large sample of programmers with [4,6,8] working hours?

In general it's difficult to measure the productivity of developers, since the a single commit can mean years of maintenance. Measuring the code quality is equally hard: linting and code conventions will only get you so far, designs need to be reviewed by humans.

In short: http://nesma.org/2015/01/programmer-productivity-is-waste-of...

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, it is 7 hours a day (for 35 hours a week contracts). In reality, most office workers are pulling unpaid extra hours. It's also possible to get 38.5 or 40 hours contracts, where you would get extra holidays to compensate (over a year). I've worked as a programmer in France, Canada and England. In my experience France and England are pretty much the same in terms of work-time (8 hours/day, 5 week holiday), C…

For the holiday length mentioned, out of curiosity, which length is it? 5 weeks x (5 days / per work week) = 25 days off or 5 weeks x (7 days / per week) = 35 days off

It means 25 days off.

Contracts always state the period in days, or hours for part-time workers, but it's normal to divide by five and say "weeks" in conversation.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#45
post #11

They're abandoning it because of an obvious requirement? Did someone not realize that in a 24 hour operation that consists of physical activities, cutting hours would require more people to carry the same workload?

Yeah this sentence was a bit of an anticlimax:

"Preliminary results concluded that it achieved all of these aims, but the city had to employ an extra 17 staff, costing 12m kroner (£1.4m), Bloomberg reported."

Am I missing something because that seems painfully obvious without even having to to undertake the experiment no?

That being said I absolutely love that the Swedish government was willing to entertain such an idea and undertake such an experiment.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, it is 7 hours a day (for 35 hours a week contracts). In reality, most office workers are pulling unpaid extra hours. It's also possible to get 38.5 or 40 hours contracts, where you would get extra holidays to compensate (over a year). I've worked as a programmer in France, Canada and England. In my experience France and England are pretty much the same in terms of work-time (8 hours/day, 5 week holiday), C…

For the holiday length mentioned, out of curiosity, which length is it? 5 weeks x (5 days / per work week) = 25 days off or 5 weeks x (7 days / per week) = 35 days off

In France it's 25 paid vacation days or 36 if you include paid public holidays. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b.... 20 paid vacation days is the EU minimum [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive_2003

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that costs ballooned more than expected. That shouldn't be shocking either - each shift change requires people to scrub in, pass on information from the previous shift, and so on - but it's a deeper question than adding new staff to cover the missing hours.

The numbers suggest this is not the case. They needed 17 extra employees for 68 existing staff members. Naively, one would expect that for 68 x 8 = 544 man hours per week, one would need 544/6 = 91 (rounded up) employees. Yet 68+17 = 85, which is six employees less !

Presumably some shifts require managers/bookkeepers/etc not required on other shifts. The overnight shift is less likely to require a receptionist dedicated to walk-in visitors and phone calls for example...

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#49
post #11

They're abandoning it because of an obvious requirement? Did someone not realize that in a 24 hour operation that consists of physical activities, cutting hours would require more people to carry the same workload?

Yeah this sentence was a bit of an anticlimax: "Preliminary results concluded that it achieved all of these aims, but the city had to employ an extra 17 staff, costing 12m kroner (£1.4m), Bloomberg reported." Am I missing something because that seems painfully obvious without even having to to undertake the experiment no? That being said I absolutely love that the Swedish government was willing to entertain such an i…

My interpretation is that the cost could be calculated beforehand but not the benefit. If the outcome was a dramatically improved care and well-being of patients that saw much shorter hospital stays OR an unanticipated reduction in the need for staff as a knock on effect of shorter workdays, then the benefit might have been considered worth the cost.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#50
post #37
post #11

They're abandoning it because of an obvious requirement? Did someone not realize that in a 24 hour operation that consists of physical activities, cutting hours would require more people to carry the same workload?

In the US the 8 hour work day was established by FDR with one feature being that it would tighten the labor market (and reduce unemployment) by forcing employers to hire more people.

The lower hours also reduced workplace injuries and provided longer term economic gains [1]. This study is probably too short measure the arguably more important gains that would take a long time to show up.

1: The Rise and Fall of American Growth, by Robert Gordon.

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