How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner • Hacker News Board

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#41

Post by wklauss » Thu, Dec 29, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

HillaryBriss wrote: post #29

> The well-choreographed customs routine is part of a hidden bounty of perks, tax breaks and subsidies in China that supports the world’s biggest iPhone factory, according to confidential government records reviewed by The New York Times, as well as more than 100 interviews with factory workers, logistics handlers, truck drivers, tax specialists and current and former Apple executives. The package of sweeteners and i…

> So, Apple's high profits depend on a whole lot of government subsidies in China. And then Apple takes that cash and protects it from US tax rates by storing it in Ireland. And now, some interesting questions are raised about the legality of that tax scheme.

They don't depend on them. Apple would still profit nicely (albeit less) without these subsidies.

But then again the same thing could be say of various players on various industries. Detroit was, too, a city built thanks to a lot of subsidies and tax breaks; oil companies extract tremendous profits thanks to subsidies, tax breaks and all kinds of government help... so on and so forth.

Aside from that, I don't think there's a question to be raised about the legality of Apple tax scheme. There's a question to be raised about it's fairness, sure, but not the legality. Apple is using the same loopholes any other corporation can exploit (and they all do, to the extent they can or know how to).

What we need is updated international and national tax codes that start taking these things into account. Most of the current legislation was designed for a time much simpler and with less access to global markets and manufacturing chains.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#42

Post by berntb » Thu, Dec 29, 2016, 9:08 PM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #28

berntb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

Even Marx said that capitalism and its rapid use of industrialisation is better than the feudalism that preceeded it in many places. I do not however agree that it's somehow better for there to be cheap labour and low wages in the thought that this will lead to progress. Rather we should compare our situation (speaking from the perspective of somewhere there are 'good' standards for workers and better wages than in s…

I would ask for examples of alternative economies being built up and creating nice and democratic countries, but we both know that if you had any supporting data you would have started with it. :-)

Please note that experiments with alternative societal models often have failure modes like dictatorships and/or a large part of the population dying in horrible ways and/or... It is not something to experiment with lightly.

It is a pity that you proponents of alternative models are so full of hot air, good research and analysis would be needed; there ought to be better ways. Most of you guys sound like you are paid to discredit everything but the status quo.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#43

Post by grecy » Thu, Dec 29, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

I'm in West Africa now and I'm experiencing this first-hand with regards to resource exploitation.

Interestingly, the large oil players (Shell, BP, etc.) do actually mandate some things - i.e. they are not really supposed to buy oil from countries that don't have functioning elections, some environmental protections, human rights, etc. etc. I believe this is a requirement of the World Bank, and the UN.

This is why you see shill elections in a lot of West African countries - they need it to look like they are functioning democracy, even though a country has had the same "elected" president for 22 years :)

Also, this is why Africa loves dealing with China, who doesn't get involved in their internal politics.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#44

Post by rqebmm » Thu, Dec 29, 2016, 11:29 PM UTC

maverick_iceman wrote: post #36

ue_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's incredibly Euro-centric to sit here and complain about the perceived child/human rights abuses that happen in China when those very exact things are what industrialized Europe. It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism, and then to say that these countries should be implementing it in such a way that there's the same…

>It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism Other countries like Soviet Union or Maoist China have tried other paths with not exactly stellar results.

Exactly. China tried one path, found it didn't work, and then chose to draft behind the best economies in the world, do what they did to get there, and do it faster because they have the benefit of hindsight.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#45

Post by gertef » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 12:41 AM UTC

intralizee wrote: post #6

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

Yes, that's the lie the corporate execs tell. People lured into a trap would rather live in the trap than die.

It's not impossible, for Apple with $XX Billion in profit hiding in tax shelters, to pay better than subsistence wages to their subcontracted workers (or invest in community resources for the cities where their factories are, or similar).

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#46

Post by ue_ » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 12:46 AM UTC

berntb wrote: post #42

ue_ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Marx said that capitalism and its rapid use of industrialisation is better than the feudalism that preceeded it in many places. I do not however agree that it's somehow better for there to be cheap labour and low wages in the thought that this will lead to progress. Rather we should compare our situation (speaking from the perspective of somewhere there are 'good' standards for workers and better wages than in s…

I would ask for examples of alternative economies being built up and creating nice and democratic countries, but we both know that if you had any supporting data you would have started with it. :-) Please note that experiments with alternative societal models often have failure modes like dictatorships and/or a large part of the population dying in horrible ways and/or... It is not something to experiment with lightl…

>Please note that experiments with alternative societal models often have failure modes like dictatorships and/or a large part of the population dying in horrible ways and/or... It is not something to experiment with lightly.

I agree it's not something to be taken lightly, but saying that there have been failures in the past is not an argument against trying to fix those failures by systematically identifying them. The modern Marxist movement is focused on finding the failures of the 20th century attempts at Socialism.

Besides that, calling out capitalism for the exploitative system that it is by no means implies I'm supporting any particular societal model, nor that I approve of other's societal model. It only means that I disapprove of capitalism.

And you know, I'm sure that during feudalism there were lords, barons and peasants all saying the exact same thing you are saying right now. You can't simply dismiss every other model that society may be fitted to by pointing out that atrocities were committed in the past. That's painting with a brush that is too thick.

>nice and democratic countries And you're even assuming democracy is something inherently good. There is also the distinction between 'pure' democracy and 'bourgeois' democracy that's worth knowing about, as Engels wrote about.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#47

Post by gertef » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 12:50 AM UTC

berntb wrote: post #8

ue_ wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's capitalism in today's world. It's the "free market" at work. I don't think the focus should be on preventing people from using "bad labour" but rather on making it so that there would be no reason to use "bad labour". As much as people on HN especially would be so critical of Socialism, they often shy away from these topics - beacuse they are uncomfortable to think about. The fact of the matter is that…

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

Almost no one is opposed to globalization, per se. We are opposed to globalization that drags down worldwide avearge income, and traps people in subsistence lifestyles, paying people 5cents of every $ of value they create, and then boasting about they should be happy they aren't dead.

The article doesn't even make sense! He's actually arguing that low wages are better than zero wages, while low wages are also better than high wages, and that the wealth creation whose impact he boasts about isn't even having a subsantial impact!

> First of all, even if we could assure the workers in Third World export industries of higher wages and better working conditions, this would do nothing for the peasants, day laborers, scavengers, and so on who make up the bulk of these countries' populations. At best, forcing developing countries to adhere to our labor standards would create a privileged labor aristocracy, leaving the poor majority no better off.

He doesn't even think to consider that, for example, a tax+entitlements scheme, that every civilized nation has, could stave off this "labor aristocracy". Nor does he explain why a Western labor aristoracy is OK, but an Eastern labor aristocracy is not.

The article is thin logically-bankrupt apologetics.

Krugman himself has walked back his old claims, he calls it "hyper-globalization" (~5minute mark). https://www.ubs.com/microsites/nobel-perspectives/en/paul-kr...

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#48

Post by gertef » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:03 AM UTC

sfifs wrote: post #15

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

Question - when the US, Europe and Japan were industrializing from 1880s through 1960s and dragged everyone into disastrous wars, did any other market complain about worker safety or abuse or pollution (the famous London fog etc.) and refuse to buy products? When now other nations are going through an industrialization phase that's actually far more respectful of worker rights than the West's industrialization was, w…

Indonesian people weren't buying Europe's products and reaping the benefits of the London smog, modern US/European/Japanese people are enjoying the benefits of modern exploitative labor in Indonesia.

What gives you the illusion that other nations are more respectful of worker rights than the US/EU was in the past?

China's cities are poisoned with smog today, for just one example.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#49

Post by gertef » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:05 AM UTC

vtange wrote: post #9

xenadu02 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we shouldn't allow that. Perhaps we should apply a tax to adjust for environmental and labor impact. I imagine it would be $0 from Europe. A medium tax from China to account for the complete lack of environmental regulation. A high tax for products from places like Bangladesh. There is nothing that says we have to allow for free trade. It certainly hasn't been a net-benefit to the United States itself.

But wouldn't that just burden American businesses against foreign competitors? It would make it so Americans would quit offshoring and simply incorporate outside of U.S. jurisdiction. That or lose to Chinese businesses that are less regulated and are thus free to be "more innovative"

It would level the playing field for all businesses. Incorporating outside the US wouldn't help the companies get access to US markets

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#50

Post by gertef » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 1:10 AM UTC

maverick_iceman wrote: post #36

ue_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's incredibly Euro-centric to sit here and complain about the perceived child/human rights abuses that happen in China when those very exact things are what industrialized Europe. It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism, and then to say that these countries should be implementing it in such a way that there's the same…

>It's also incredibly Euro-centric to be thinking that other countries ought to be following the path Europe and the US took to capitalism Other countries like Soviet Union or Maoist China have tried other paths with not exactly stellar results.

You can't blindly assert that Maoist China was not Euro style and modern China is Euro style, and also claim that Maoist China has nothing to do with modern China's economy. There's a near-direct line from Maoist China to modern China -- the next generation of the same Communist Party is in charge.