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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#41

Post by egocodedinsol »

rayiner wrote: post #35
egocodedinsol wrote: post #34

Before this gets flagged to oblivion, I have one criticism and two defenses of the article. As a criticism, this article doesn't address the sciences. The availability of research money is a major reason to go to an elite science institution. If you want to do science, the best thing is to do it, and that usually means email a lab and asking to work there. More labs with more money probably means better opportunities…

My brother went to Yale and this does not seem consistent at all. Maybe the author had shitty friends.

I don't mean that people at elite institutions are mostly shitty, or even those who've said these things are shitty - I have great friends from my time in school. I hope I did not paint a picture of snobbish assholes who do nothing but sit around and talk about how great they were. I didn't want to be defensive and write a whole paragraph about how much I value the friends and discussions I had in school. I miss my college all the time, and I think there was something special there. It really was an extraordinary place, in large part because of those around me.

However, I did still see these patterns, in others, and in myself.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#42

Post by jayajay »

BipolarElsa wrote: post #3

This article is utter rubbish. Anyone who possesses an elite education will never suffer in their life. They're in the upper-echelon of society. I have no pity for them and they are not at a disadvantage. Go ahead an ask anyone accepted into Yale if they'd trade it off for the same major at po-dunk State U. What do you think their response will be? Don't be daft. This is trash.

People seem to exaggerate the difference between Elite schools and State schools. The key difference between elite schools and other schools is entrenchment. Basically, how "sold" are students into society? At Yale, students hold a conformist, yet liberal attitude. They tend to take things much more seriously: grades, exams, clubs, events, etc. You'll find more expression at Yale than you will at a State school, but that expression tends to be low dimensional. Most people are worried about the same stuff -- it's just that they are all worried. That's what Yale is like. It's not that those students are smarter, it's just that they are more invested into the system, and they have been for longer.

That's pretty much 90% of the difference I notice between Yalies and State school students.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#43

Post by cm2012 »

Understanding of others is probably more correlated with an elite education than not.

It's just that understanding of others is relatively rare in the first place among all humans. It's just way more annoying from elites because they tend to think they're very open minded, even when they are not.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#45

Post by egocodedinsol »

tokenadult wrote: post #29

Summer 2008, and widely criticized from then to now. I wonder if a professor of English can ever have the same perspective as a professor of biology or a professor of mathematics. I don't think he has made the case that higher education that can properly be called "elite" is actually disadvantageous. https://psmag.com/the-problems-with-william-deresiewicz-s-ne...

I don't think he made that case, either. But it doesn't stop some of his observations from being thought provoking.

I do agree that a science professor would likely have an entirely different perspective.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#46

Post by yummyfajitas »

Mz wrote: post #23
peteretep wrote: post #20

Brits figured this shit out a long time ago: you talk about the weather.

Brits also are much more okay with embracing the idea that there are separate classes. Americans like to think we are better than that and (like to imagine that we) treat all people in some idealized egalitarian fashion. In practice, it is a lot, lot harder to treat everyone equally well and try to ignore class divides than to have protocols in place for bridging the gap between people explicitly of different classes…

It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes. Some years back a blogger tried to cook up a taxonomy of our class system. Since we don't have words to describe them he adopted archaic Indian terms instead. Brahmins are the NY/CA elite, Vaisyas are the Trump voting worker caste, etc.

https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes...

Other writers have recognized and described it too: http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html

Even our very own Michael O. Church: https://www.meetup.com/Philadelphia-Political-Agnostics/mess...

I'm with Mz on this - we should start explicitly recognizing our caste system.

It's been helpful to me; once I figured out our castes and where I live in it, suddenly a lot of things clicked into place. For example, why do so many people not recognize me as white? It's because I don't give off the cultural signals of being upper caste (Brahmin in Moldbug's taxonomy) but I'm solidly within Brahim professional and social circles. Given these mismatched signals, Kashmiri or Argentinian seems like the most plausible hypothesis.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#47

Post by phamilton »

nimchimpsky wrote: post #32
Mz wrote: post #11

The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity, so I began to read the article. It's been a long ..year...and I am super tired, so I am not going to manage to actually read the whole thing. But, I was one of the top three students of my graduating high school class and I turned down a National Merit Scholarship to one of the top two universities of my home state. I think I made the right call and I t…

"the ability "to not be rich" is, in fact, a choice" Yeah but thats a choice, whereas being poor is enforced. Thats why an elite education is an advantage. The article is horrible self indulgent drivel ... "you incapable of talking to people who aren’t like you". They think going to a shitty school teaches you how to talk to everyone?

> a choice not psychologically available

I feel like you missed his argument by about 3 words.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#48

Post by buzzybee »

Mz wrote: post #11

The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity, so I began to read the article. It's been a long ..year...and I am super tired, so I am not going to manage to actually read the whole thing. But, I was one of the top three students of my graduating high school class and I turned down a National Merit Scholarship to one of the top two universities of my home state. I think I made the right call and I t…

Your last paragraph is most crucial to being sympathetic towards this article, as most of the comments here have fallen into "damn the man" raving.

If you're in the position of having elite status thrust upon you, it's generally in everyone's interest that you actually be good at that, and not just told that you're good at it because you followed the rules.

We must assume that most people, most of the time, regardless of their apparent status or agency, are not strong-willed philosophers, but prisoners to scripted expectations and obligations. We will all try to avoid struggle and have it easy, and in doing so condemn ourselves to the life of the living dead by staying in an ever-diminishing comfort zone. And for someone who is in this state to step into a role with great power and then coast along without vision or direction - well, that sure does describe a lot of people!

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#50

Post by paulsutter »

wenc wrote: post #38
paulsutter wrote: post #24

The solution is near. The "elite" will be a lot less smug when their jobs also get replaced by technology. No need for melodramatic navel-gazing. Anyone notice that some the most "elite" schools are total no-shows in AI research?

Unfortunately, this is the wrong conclusion -- the jobs of the elite are precisely those that don't get replaced by technology. Automation only affects those jobs are systematic and repeatable. The elite typically hold jobs in consulting, finance, management, government, etc. that require a lot of word-smithing and people skills. The big blind spot for technologists is thinking that technology is central to everythin…

Would you care to place a bet on which jobs will be replaced by technology?

Banks haves acres of class A office space filled with people preparing powerpoints to show each other. Those jobs will go away.

And those are the people who hire management consultants.

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