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Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

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Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#41

Post by wslh »

mtw wrote: post #38
zaroth wrote: post #35

75% of Turkers are Americans. And I didn't see it in the OP but I would guess that similarly 75% of companies issuing HITs are American. Now I don't know the exact wording of minimum wage law, but I'm pretty sure if you hire an independent contractor through a 3rd party staffing company, let's say to clean houses. And then you set a fixed price on the service, say you will pay $20 for each house cleaned, knowing it t…

From what I understand, most of the american turkers are stay-at-home moms. They have a family to cater to and various obligations that prevent them to pursue a full-time job. Mechanical Turk gives them the possibility to work anytime, at their own rhytm. 10mn there, 2 hours, early am, middle of the night. I'm not sure if there are jobs that can offer this flexibility.

Just check how much you can do in Mechanical Turk and you would find that is basically zero. It would be good to calculate what is the price of this work in other markets to know if this is fair trade, fair labor.

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#42

Post by dx034 »

BoorishBears wrote: post #10
tie_ wrote: post #4

It's a global platform for cheap human labor. I find it completely unsurprising that living off cheap labor alone would not result in a particularly good living standard, especially not in some of the most expensive locations in the world, and especially not when competing with cheap labor from across the globe.

I'm always torn when I see stories like this. On one hand I feel for someone making less than minimum wage doing a job, but on the other I realize that these people are competing with people who come from places without a minimum wage at all. The same thing happens on freelancer sites. Jobs for pennies on the dollar of their worth are fought over by people barely making it in the US, and people who are enjoying a rat…

And they compete with people living in much cheaper prices. $5/hr isn't a living wage in the US, but it very well is in many parts of India. So there are many people who can well compete at these levels because they can live from it.

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#44

Post by Fnoord »

BoorishBears wrote: post #10
tie_ wrote: post #4

It's a global platform for cheap human labor. I find it completely unsurprising that living off cheap labor alone would not result in a particularly good living standard, especially not in some of the most expensive locations in the world, and especially not when competing with cheap labor from across the globe.

I'm always torn when I see stories like this. On one hand I feel for someone making less than minimum wage doing a job, but on the other I realize that these people are competing with people who come from places without a minimum wage at all. The same thing happens on freelancer sites. Jobs for pennies on the dollar of their worth are fought over by people barely making it in the US, and people who are enjoying a rat…

> but on the other I realize that these people are competing with people who come from places without a minimum wage at all.

"Places", or "countries" might have low minimum wage compared to US or even below the average of world. But no minimum wage at all seems unlikely.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count...

I wonder if there is a 18+ check involved.

> To me the answer is to tell yourself that it's not work but a hobby that happens to pay, and at least seek out work that pays minimum wage in your area, if that applies.

But it isn't a hobby; it is paid; hence work.

From Wikipedia: "A Hobby is a regular activity that is done for enjoyment, typically during one's leisure time."

The type of labour on Amazon Turk is extremely repetitive just like (physical) hard labour. The goal also isn't pleasure, and the income isn't a gift; it is part of one's income (I wonder if it is being tracked though).

I also find the name Amazon Turk offensive. I am aware that the word Turk has multiple meanings, but in a good part of the 90s in Europe cheap labour and Turkish people went hand in hand. It was the kind of labour the native Europeans didn't want to do (e.g. garbagemen), it paid very badly.

Now we are at the next step of globalisation and because the competition goes via the Internet the lowest common denominator becomes standard. Which is very bad for those who are unemployed, underskilled, homeless etc in higher civilized countries where the standard of living is higher, but so is things like rent. Heck, I wouldn't even be able to pay my rent with Amazon Turk.

> The same thing happens on freelancer sites. Jobs for pennies on the dollar of their worth are fought over by people barely making it in the US, and people who are enjoying a rather livable stream of income in other countries.

Yes, and fake freelance like Uber and MLM.

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#45

Post by drieddust »

haser_au wrote: post #18
drieddust wrote: post #13

Amazon is setting a wrong precedence which others are following[1]. When Bezos says "Your Margin is my opportunity.", he fails to mention who will be the loser. They have started a race to bottom which means employees/workers will be squeezed until their bones are dry. I think this can be fixed simply by measuring companies on employment they generate and median tax payed per employee apart from the corporate tax. If…

To some extent, this happens today. In countries like Australia and the UK, companies that pay their fair share of tax and employ a lot of people are viewed upon favourably by government. For instance, the entire automotive industry in Australia. The problem becomes when globalisation occurs, and those companies are no longer competitive against foreign car companies. The Australian government tried to bail out the a…

That's a good point and I don't really have an answer to it.

If a global company is only selling imported product produced elsewhere shouldn't they be paying higher taxes which will make the play ground even. I don not think they would like to lose access to a market just because taxes are higher. After all they too need consumer to sell products too.

In current state globalization is able to produce cheap services by exploiting worker from both sides of globe developed and developing. You can see that in Amazon(developed) and Flipcart(India). In the trend continues purchasing power of masses will erode to a point of no return.

Secondly true costs are hidden so if a company is selling cheaper cars by not using proper waste and environment management. They are essentially discounting the future to provide cheap services today.

And you are right this is not possible without having a global governance with a long term view.

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#46

Post by JustSomeNobody »

wjossey wrote: post #27
PostOnce wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of sight, out of mind. It's not like those people have the same standard of living but just with lower living costs. You know a WHOLE LOT of people would rather make 500k a year than 300k even if it means their employees are damn near homeless and malnourished. See: any biz with min wage employees in the US. Plus you're not bound by the same labor laws if you hire from overseas, only public outrage if the public…

> You know a WHOLE LOT of people would rather make 500k a year than 300k even if it means their employees are damn near homeless and malnourished. See: any biz with min wage employees in the US. Nah, sorry. That's just over the top and not true. I worked two separate minimum wage jobs before I was 20, and both had owner / operators who made no where near that kind of money. One was an entrepreneur who was losing mone…

Looks like McDonald's median wages. McDonald's CEO's pay package is over 400 times that.

FOUR HUNDRED!

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#47

Post by visarga »

sharmi wrote: post #26
visarga wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

classfic[i]ations /Just a human doing a spellbot's job.

class[i]fic[i]ations /Just another human doing a human's job doing a spellbot's job Makes you wonder about the quality of the job done on MechanicalTurk. Redoing supposedly done work is my worst nightmare.

Haha this is priceless. :-) Thanks

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#48

Post by zaroth »

mtw wrote: post #38
zaroth wrote: post #35

75% of Turkers are Americans. And I didn't see it in the OP but I would guess that similarly 75% of companies issuing HITs are American. Now I don't know the exact wording of minimum wage law, but I'm pretty sure if you hire an independent contractor through a 3rd party staffing company, let's say to clean houses. And then you set a fixed price on the service, say you will pay $20 for each house cleaned, knowing it t…

From what I understand, most of the american turkers are stay-at-home moms. They have a family to cater to and various obligations that prevent them to pursue a full-time job. Mechanical Turk gives them the possibility to work anytime, at their own rhytm. 10mn there, 2 hours, early am, middle of the night. I'm not sure if there are jobs that can offer this flexibility.

I don't believe that working in fits and spurts is a written exception to the minimum wage law.

To be covered by the Federal minimum wage, one must be a "covered nonexempt" employee. There are two ways in which an employee can be covered by the law: "enterprise coverage" and "individual coverage." [1]

  Enterprise Coverage

  Employees who work for certain businesses or organizations (or "enterprises") are
  covered by the FLSA. These enterprises, which must have at least two employees, are:

    (1) those that have an annual dollar volume of sales or business done of at least
        $500,000
    (2) hospitals, businesses providing medical or nursing care for residents, schools and
        preschools, and government agencies

  Individual Coverage

  Even when there is no enterprise coverage, employees are protected by the FLSA if their
  work regularly involves them in commerce between States ("interstate commerce"). The FLSA
  covers individual workers who are "engaged in commerce or in the production of goods for
  commerce."

  Examples of employees who are involved in interstate commerce include those who: produce
  goods (such as a worker assembling components in a factory or a secretary typing letters
  in an office) that will be sent out of state, regularly make telephone calls to persons
  located in other States, handle records of interstate transactions, travel to other States
  on their jobs, and do janitorial work in buildings where goods are produced for shipment
  outside the State.
What I think that means is either Turkers are covered by FLSA if the HIT comes from a business which has more than $500k of annual sales volume.

Or Turkers are covered under FLSA because their work involves commerce between states. Because their work itself is literally commerce between states on its face -- the writen work product is sent over the Internet -- I don't see how you weasel out of that one.

I don't see how Turkers could be exempt from FLSA, but IANAL.

[1] - https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs14.htm

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#49

Post by BoorishBears »

Fnoord wrote: post #44
BoorishBears wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always torn when I see stories like this. On one hand I feel for someone making less than minimum wage doing a job, but on the other I realize that these people are competing with people who come from places without a minimum wage at all. The same thing happens on freelancer sites. Jobs for pennies on the dollar of their worth are fought over by people barely making it in the US, and people who are enjoying a rat…

> but on the other I realize that these people are competing with people who come from places without a minimum wage at all. "Places", or "countries" might have low minimum wage compared to US or even below the average of world. But no minimum wage at all seems unlikely. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count... I wonder if there is a 18+ check involved. > To me the answer is to tell yoursel…

I'm (oddly) glad someone else finds the name offensive. I know the history from the chess playing machine, but I found it felt more strongly tied to the meaning behind that in Turkish people. I just worried I was being overly sensitive and no one else would see it that way.

But I'd also say having a stated minimum wage, and having a relevant minimum wage are two different things. I come from a country on that list with a stated minimum wage of 1.70$ a day or about 22 cents an hour.

Not only is that incredibly low, I assure you no one is touring villages looking for hawkers with young helpers that aren't getting paid 1.79 a day, when the hawkers themselves can't ensure they're getting 1.79 every single day.

Ironically, it looks like mechanical Turk would actually meet the minimum wage in the country. And I'm sure the country is not alone there. So for someone who has no better source of income, I'm sure even after paying for an Internet cafe they'd come out making income that's livable.

I don't think that it's a bad thing that those wages aren't livable in a country where our hourly minimum wage exceeds the daily minimum wage.

That's why I'd say treat it like a hobby if you're in a country that's like the US.

I'm definitely not calling the work described as fun, but treat it as a hobby in the sense of treating it as something you do because you want to make a few dollars from the comfort of your computer (and for some reason don't want to try something that pays better in the long run like learning a skill, say... programming), not because you have to pay rent next month (again, situation permitting).

You have to remember, even in the US at minimum wage people still struggle with rent, so even if mechanical Turk did pay minimum wage per country, it'd still wouldn't guarantee financial security in many parts of the US

Re: Inside Amazon's clickworker platform

#50

Post by [deleted] »

Fnoord wrote: post #44
BoorishBears wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always torn when I see stories like this. On one hand I feel for someone making less than minimum wage doing a job, but on the other I realize that these people are competing with people who come from places without a minimum wage at all. The same thing happens on freelancer sites. Jobs for pennies on the dollar of their worth are fought over by people barely making it in the US, and people who are enjoying a rat…

> but on the other I realize that these people are competing with people who come from places without a minimum wage at all. "Places", or "countries" might have low minimum wage compared to US or even below the average of world. But no minimum wage at all seems unlikely. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count... I wonder if there is a 18+ check involved. > To me the answer is to tell yoursel…

[deleted]
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