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Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

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Re: Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to note that the actual faucets of ISK into the economy are actually few. Off the top of my head I can think of only three: destroying pirate ships, running missions, and collecting destroyed ship insurance. Every other "faucet" of ISK is really just shuffling it around to different wallets. A huge corporation has a large moon mining operation going and selling what they receive for large amounts of mo…

W O R M H O L E S Sleeper rats don't give bounties. If they did, wormholers would never come out of their caves :3 so sleepers drop blue loot - one of those NPC commodities you're referring to; isn't required to build anything, generates isk when sold to NPC buy order. Forces the wormholers to transport stuff to market. Before the site changes that came with the capital rework, highclass capital escalations were habi…

Ah, my mistake for not knowing that one, thanks! I admit I've never really done much with wormholes except used them to get from highsec to nullsec and vise versa, so I didn't know about that faucet.

It sounds like the change had the right heart to it to get people into Rattlesnakes, as 800m/hour with the extra faucet of full insurance sounds like it might have been just a bit too much. I imagine it's a pretty delicate balance of faucets/sinks, and that might have been throwing it off. I don't think I was playing at the time, if you were did you notice any extra inflation in Jita prices?

Re: Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

#42
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so at least at low levels, ~5 hours of game work a week just to pay for the subscription for that month. Assuming this is about 50% as much fun as you would have if it wasn't a requirement , and that you have other things you would rather spend that money, definitely not worth it at low levels.

thesis: the fundamentals to getting rich (in eve) are 1) being smart and 2) (much less important) having money already The people who go ratting in null as he described are the people with no imagination, who go into a sandbox game and decide to spend their time doing the one thing in Eve that's most like other mmos: smacking mobs for money. Like he said, that's about 50-100m/hr ranging from "basic setup" to "reasona…

Thanks for the rant, was great. Used to play Eve a lot. In the end I got pretty deep into suicide ganking (destroying ships in 'secure' space at the cost of your own ship(s) for the loot).

At best it was like 400m/ hour but didn't exactly scale easily. I had 7 windows open. Scanner dramiel remote sensor boosted by someone two jumps from target, three battleships with artillery cannons, one destroyer with artillery cannons and a scrambler, someone sensor boosting these ships, and a hauler ready to warp to can. Sometimes I would scan the other direction and be ready to switch gank gates but it depends on system. Goal was to be able to catch almost anything with 1bil+ in cargo. Cruisers, t2 haulers, t3 cruisers, etc. It felt really distopian. Some hits were upwards of 5bil.

Re: Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

#43
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty good, and probably the best run MMO economy out there. However, there were still problems. Most of the great faucets are not risk free endeavors, and efficiently exploiting them requires expensive ships that are completely lost when you screw up or are murdered.* The really good faucets in nullsec when I was playing in the mid-oughts were largely dominated by big alliances. There wasn't as much opportun…

The lack of money printing wouldn't prevent groups of people from coalescing into big blobs and gaining a competitive advantage. In fact, I'd assert it makes it even worse. Imagine a sufficiently large alliance in your idealized game that by hook and crook "surrounds" your central bank. All new money in the economy passes through them. Sure you can finely control inflation, but without helicopter money you have no kn…

Imagine a sufficiently large alliance in your idealized game that by hook and crook "surrounds" your central bank

I'd simply make access to the central bank universal. Done.

Long term players having big piles of cash really causes a lot of price dysfunction in my mmo experience. Eventually all the goods and materials that aren't required for end game play approaches a price of zero, where everything else gets more and more and more expensive as money loses value for the people who have it in abundance.

Well, for one thing, I don't have a defined endgame. The leaderboards will be based on how far out into space a player can "camp" -- with the environment becoming exponentially more powerful as you go out. Tech level N+1 items will be made out of tech level N items.

Also, I'm starting to think that I should limit the uses of money. There will be the equivalent of "cold pressed latinum" -- which will have very limited uses. Maybe have everything be based on a sophisticated barter-matching system, with money only being available to and used by players? (And in-detail simulated player-equivalent NPCs.)

As for the arbitrage thing -- price in nullsec for capital goods was 10-20% higher than it was in empire. Having an operation that hauls replacement ships, mods etc out to nullsec, and nullsec resources back to empire was an easy way to make billions if you were set up to move enough volume.

Okay, I thought that this was referring to something else. This is the reason why I knew my small alliance would fail! We didn't build the "infrastructure" to do this! Or rather, we didn't create the intra-organizational norms and information infrastructure that let us do this efficiently. We even had a freakin real station, which should have been an insurmountable advantage -- except for the whole server crashing thing every time we were clearly going to win a sovereignty battle.

even though that guy spent 100m on that battleship and you spent 250k on your rifter

I loved the Rifter! My alliance had a philosophy of flying cheap ships, having no mods, and not being afraid to die, so long as you destroyed more ISK than was destroyed out from under you. We had it all over our opponents in terms of battle tactics. We couldn't manage our own economy, though. (It was badly centrally managed.) We also couldn't maintain morale.

High level crafting uses tons of low level materials, so new crafters can still make a profit off turning iron into screws or whatever.

My scheme for a procedurally generated tech tree has this property.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3DPalL7p5w

If you manage it I'll be the first to carry your banner to future mmo economic discussions ;)

Thanks.

Re: Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

#44
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. It's a by-product of the typical hyperinflation you get when you try to devise an economy where everyone gets to print as much money as they care to. (Which is what MMO grinding for cash basically amounts to.) Their trying to peg ISK to real world money through PLEX is a typical strategy to try and counteract this, which also typically kind-of works, but only typically kind-of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su…

Rather than avoiding printing money, I'd suggest considering using feedback loops to try to control the economy. One of the core problems with a simulated economy is that it can't ever really be a real economy as long as it has significant chunks of the economic transactions coming from programs rather than people. There's always a border between the humans and the machines, and I think a lot of the silliness of MMO…

One of the core problems with a simulated economy is that it can't ever really be a real economy as long as it has significant chunks of the economic transactions coming from programs rather than people. There's always a border between the humans and the machines, and I think a lot of the silliness of MMO economies comes from that border, and the way it can be exploited, rather than the economic issues themselves.

That bends the economy.

This is exactly what I've been thinking! (Actually, some of this thought fully coalesced in this very discussion!) It's a truism that mechanics tend to get deeper if the AIs have to play by the same rules as the players. I think this goes for the economy! The way to solve a lot of the silliness of MMO economies is to eliminate as much as possible the fake parts of it!

The inaccuracies are fundamentally unfixable in some sense, but they could probably be mitigated by trying to put in a feedback loop

If you ground the economy in a simulated "nature" then this provides an inherent feedback loop. This also solidifies my thinking around how to coalesce everything that fosters emergence into one game! The point of Genetic Algorithms in my game shouldn't be to design new ships, or new content. The point should be to provide the substrate of an ever changing and evolving ecology to ground its economy.

The other thing I'd consider would be implementing storage fees (which themselves float) to prevent hoarding and gathering excessive wealth, probably structured as a progressive tax, too. Or at the very least, make it a knob you can crank and tell people it may change on a day-by-day basis.

Another thing I could do would be to make the economy mostly an information economy, with the physical economy being vastly simplified. (It will fundamentally have to be vastly simplified no matter what.) This also fits in with my notion of a procedurally generated tech tree.

Re: Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

#45
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anchoring the in-game currency is one of the main strategies for preventing in-game currency inflation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sumZLwFXJqE Instead of paying player characters to grind, and therefore have players consume game content, why aren't we paying players to create game content?

One of the issues is it tends to make boring games. I had a conversion with one of EVE's old developers who basically said, the company did not really care about growing the player base as long as they can keep going. In the end it's different largely because they are not trying to be a 'successful' company, instead of kind of a profitable hobby. City of Heroes had some player based content, which also fell flat on i…

One of the issues is it tends to make boring games

Eve would be a data point supporting this. I had some adrenaline rushes playing Eve, but I also could use it as a sleep aid, depending on precisely what I was doing.

I think that one of the problems is a poor conception of what it means for players to create content. The most compelling content for me in Eve was simply the most exciting stuff that happened during nullsec alliance PvP.

In the end it's different largely because they are not trying to be a 'successful' company, instead of kind of a profitable hobby.

This also fits with my current goals.

Re: Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

W O R M H O L E S Sleeper rats don't give bounties. If they did, wormholers would never come out of their caves :3 so sleepers drop blue loot - one of those NPC commodities you're referring to; isn't required to build anything, generates isk when sold to NPC buy order. Forces the wormholers to transport stuff to market. Before the site changes that came with the capital rework, highclass capital escalations were habi…

Ah, my mistake for not knowing that one, thanks! I admit I've never really done much with wormholes except used them to get from highsec to nullsec and vise versa, so I didn't know about that faucet. It sounds like the change had the right heart to it to get people into Rattlesnakes, as 800m/hour with the extra faucet of full insurance sounds like it might have been just a bit too much. I imagine it's a pretty delica…

Here is a recent Reddit thread on the topic[0] but the discussion has been going on for a while - at least a couple of months before the wormhole town hall thread that the top comment links to. There are a couple of other good threads that I can't find immediately - one in particular by an Hard Knocks member trying to clear up some public perceptions of how HK plays into the current jspace situation (apply salt, as with any public statement made by an Eve player who declares his affiliation). In any case, HK flairs are everywhere when this is brought up.

[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/52ri3v/lets_fix_high_c...

The stuff about Rattles being impossible to catch and not worth it if you do is spot on. Those things are so cheap. Not as cheap as when Goons were in Dek poopsocking Guristas DED sites, but still cheap. I help run a new player friendly low class group and we've pretty much skipped recommending remote-rep domis (which are even cheaper) and now just recommend Rattles.

The people who were running high class who decided to leave are pretty much (as far as I can tell) just running incursions. The description in the thread of how much work it is to set up a secure wormhole to PVE in is pretty good too. Incursions aren't as much money but they're so much easier.

>price inflation

Nah, I don't think it was enough to make tooooo much of a dent in prices. Even before the current exodus, jspace players are like 2% of the population. The null ratting faucet dominates the blue loot faucet hard. The highsec incursion faucet is bigger too, but not by nearly as much. Similar case with running lowsec Level 5's in an insured carrier - 1b/hr, but so few people do it that it's not a big deal.

Btw I was being a little facetious about the insurance (in jspace). Caps are probably not buying insurance much honestly. You can only insure in a station, not a POS or citadel, so it's a pain in the ass to get your cap out of the chain, insured, and back into the chain every 3 months. Caps mass holes pretty fast. The lowsec missioning caps, on the other hand, are certainly insured. I think you lose 150-200m tops from a t2 fit, platinum insured carrier or dread loss. (A plat-insured Dominix is a 50m loss, and 6+ of them remote-repping each other is about as cancerous as the old slowcat fleets, but in a subcap form - thank god you can't move them far or fast because of lowclass mass limits.)

Re: Eve Evolved: Analysing Eve's New Economic Reports

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thesis: the fundamentals to getting rich (in eve) are 1) being smart and 2) (much less important) having money already The people who go ratting in null as he described are the people with no imagination, who go into a sandbox game and decide to spend their time doing the one thing in Eve that's most like other mmos: smacking mobs for money. Like he said, that's about 50-100m/hr ranging from "basic setup" to "reasona…

Thanks for the rant, was great. Used to play Eve a lot. In the end I got pretty deep into suicide ganking (destroying ships in 'secure' space at the cost of your own ship(s) for the loot). At best it was like 400m/ hour but didn't exactly scale easily. I had 7 windows open. Scanner dramiel remote sensor boosted by someone two jumps from target, three battleships with artillery cannons, one destroyer with artillery ca…

>maintaining 7 accounts with 400m/h

Wow... Either 1) you really enjoyed suicide ganking and did it a lot (just like I enjoy writing tools and spreadsheets so my activities aren't "working to plex" but "playing the game"), or 2) this was a few years ago and plex were sub-600m. Leaning towards the second one because I've never heard of arty battleships for suicide ganking. Seems expensive. Did your ships look like this?:

http://pre10.deviantart.net/d525/th/pre/i/2012/089/0/5/eve__...

because Nado battlecruisers have been the large arty ganking platform of choice (they fit battleship guns) since I started around 2013-14.

I guess your destroyer was to volley any shuttles/frigs that came through? Clever.

What routes did you work? Jita/Amarr pipe? Hub undocks? Did you move around to keep from getting a reputation?

I'm always curious to know what players who were active years ago think of newer developments in the body of player knowledge involving their main activites. Early on Eve was like the wild west where people didn't know as much and tried things that seem ludicrous given what we've learned since then. Since you're an instalocking ganker, what do you think of these? Were they something you were aware of / thought about?

[0]: Given: Eve runs in 1 second ticks. Reasoning: it takes one tick for the target to show up on the ganker's screen and another tick for the ganker's scram to apply to the target. Conclusion: ships that align and enter warp in less than 2 seconds are uncatchable without a bubble.

[1]: Infographic for how to make sub-2sec-align interceptors (which are immune to bubbles): http://i.imgur.com/7rYYJpY.png

[2]: Infographic going deeper into the 2sec "common knowledge" rule and showing that 2sec align ships can be caught in edge cases (which has been proven experimentally by now): http://eve.501gu.de/misc/travelceptor_vs_instalocker.png

[3]: Tool written this year using publicly available kill data to determine whether a planned route is likely to include gankers/campers and displaying qualifying info like "Were the kills specifically near gates?" (kills not on gates are likely not a camp) "Were heavy interdictors involved?" (No amount of stabs can counter a HIC infinipoint) etc.: http://eve-gatecheck.space/eve/#Jita:Rens:shortest

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