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The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

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Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#41

Post by mooreds »

kevin_b_er wrote: post #7

> Some had already been irritated when “professional” managers had been hired over their teams with reportedly more stock than the early engineers had That right there is a huge warning sign that they're not valued well and that they never were.

Wait. I know all about having dunderheads hired above me, having gone through the dot com bubble and crash.

But are you implying that no VP should ever be hired over the early engineers? I can imagine numerous situations where doing just that would provide value to the engineers and the company. And an experienced VP, even if expensive, can be a bargain if they've "done this before".

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#42

Post by serge2k »

kylec wrote: post #9
mcguire wrote: post #8

" It never ceases to amaze me how many startups make the mistake of killing off the free drinks. " (One of the comments on the page.) But wait a minute. Killing off the free drinks is just the signpost. The change is primarily in the size and the culture of the company itself. Charging for sodas might be the first, but it isn't the biggest change that the company is going to, and going to have to, make as it grows. D…

I would be shocked if Amazon, Facebook, and Google don't still give away free sodas.

Amazon doesn't.

Facebook and Google both give away free food, so I can't see why soda would be a problem.

Microsoft has free soda and the food is fairly cheap.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#43

Post by gliese1337 »

kevinstubbs wrote: post #34
anthony-james wrote: post #19

As an accountant, I feel like employees are severely underpaid in highly-skilled markets (like tech, not accounting), and I think that companies don't actually capture the true cost of a single full time employee. Most see a salary, benefits, fringe costs (like hiring HR and finance teams), lunches, etc. Some of the better firms add in the cost of hiring employees with intangibles, like communication, poise, and prof…

I see what you're saying, but if everybody is getting paid at the breakeven, or close to breakeven point, the company is going to be starved of capital it needs to grow, take bets, weather a bad sales cycle, etc. Also, how can a company give bonuses or raises to employees when all employees are already being paid what the value they are generating for the company is? You can play with how short of the breakeven point…

I pretty much agree with you, but

> Also, how can a company give bonuses or raises to employees when all employees are already being paid what the value they are generating for the company is?

is a terrible argument. In the event that my boss determines that I deserve a bonus, I consider that an adjustment for mis-estimating my value when determining my original salary. If you pay me enough that you can't afford to pay out a bonus, then I don't need a bonus.

If you plan to pay out bonuses, given that the practical value of future money is less than current money, I prefer to simply have that bonus money added to my base salary from the beginning.

I realize that for many people there is a psychological factor involved; getting a bonus feels good, in a way that getting the same amount of money spread out throughout the year does not, and there is some value in that. But the ability to choose one payment option over the other should be open to a potential employee during negotiations. You should be able to offer the option of a higher salary in exchange for no possibility of bonuses.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#44

Post by dpandey »

davidw wrote: post #39
dpandey wrote: post #15

Small perks like free lunches, gym membership or a massage every month are huge in making employees happy. We're a seed funded company and provide free lunches to our employees. We also reimburse up to 100$ a month for fitness/gym memberships. Some of my friends working in large organizations don't get these perks, and point out that they're wasteful of a company that is cash flow negative and trying to conserve capi…

> the company genuinely cares about them They don't though, in most cases. All that stuff is just window dressing. I haven't thought about it a lot, but genuinely caring might mean not firing someone going through a rough patch, when their productivity is pretty bad.

I'd say that when you've worked at a company > 6 months, you know if your manager cares about you. You know if the management cares about you. Doesn't take much to figure that out.

I think there are 1-1 and public ways of showing care. When an employee has a performance issue and is going through something rough, you have a private conversation, nobody else needs to know (unless they're impacted/frustrated and you let them know some of it to make them cut some slack) and the employee is taken care of.

Perks are a public way of taking a stand and saying I care about people and will provide these perks and won't take them away except in the direst of situations. Providing perks won't make people love you, but it shows you care. They're nice to get and show thoughtfulness. Especially if you're not obnoxious otherwise.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#45

Post by Scuds »

peterwwillis wrote: post #6

I still don't understand why companies would willingly serve free drinks (and snacks) that they know will only deteriorate the health of their employees. Free drinks, sure, but 290-calorie cans of sugar, and bags of fat? Say what you will about adults having free will to make bad choices, but your company doesn't give away free cigarettes.

You're missing the point; soda is a creature comfort. If an employer can cut soda, they can cut coffee, and coffee brewing equipment. They can cut refrigerators, microwaves, and dishwashers. Break rooms can be closed and replaced with cubicle space. Washrooms can be cleaned every other day. And on and on and on.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#46

Post by Fnoord »

everyone wrote: post #22

The free soda n junk in startups is bullshit. I'd rather get paid a little more and spend that on what I choose (something healthy). Who would be enticed by that? What is enticing to me is the freedom to work how/where/when I want.

Agreed. TANSTAAFL, and I guess it is the old left (as in everyone equal) vs right (free choice) debate.

We get free bread for lunch. Cool, but I don't wanna eat bread.

Coffee is free. Cool, but it is bad quality, my el cheapo espresso machine at home is even better. Plus I'll experience a massive down in the evening. Oh hey, not the employer's problem.

I've never seen free soda anywhere, but the thing is: it is just a lot of sugar, with too little water. I won't drink that if I get paid for it.

At least water is free, and that's important in the summer. I'm free to go grab a cup, and the walk is healthy, too.

Then there's these parties 'for team spirit', with all kind of fried food. Cool. Guess who pays for that?

Screw all this. Like you said; "I'd rather get paid a little bit more."

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#47

Post by dpandey »

peterwwillis wrote: post #6

I still don't understand why companies would willingly serve free drinks (and snacks) that they know will only deteriorate the health of their employees. Free drinks, sure, but 290-calorie cans of sugar, and bags of fat? Say what you will about adults having free will to make bad choices, but your company doesn't give away free cigarettes.

We provide healthy snacks. Yoghurt, oatmeal, nuts, bars, trailmix, and of course beer.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#48

Post by empath75 »

kylec wrote: post #9
mcguire wrote: post #8

" It never ceases to amaze me how many startups make the mistake of killing off the free drinks. " (One of the comments on the page.) But wait a minute. Killing off the free drinks is just the signpost. The change is primarily in the size and the culture of the company itself. Charging for sodas might be the first, but it isn't the biggest change that the company is going to, and going to have to, make as it grows. D…

I would be shocked if Amazon, Facebook, and Google don't still give away free sodas.

Aol has free sodas, but not food.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#49

Post by dragonwriter »

anthony-james wrote: post #38
dragonwriter wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're paying an engineer $100k to add 150k worth of value to your product, the true value of their work is $300k If you pay engineers $300K for every $150K in value they add to your product, your cost will exceed value and will accelerate as you add more engineers. It's therefore eminently clear that there is no meaningful sense in which the true value of an engineer's work adding $150K to your product value is…

The true value of the employee to an organization in a non-monopoly industry is 300k, in this example, because of the opportunity cost of the employee (assuming they could provide the same value at other firms). The true value of the employee ==/== the total compensation of the employee. As I said above, the total compensation would be as close to $150k as possible - because at $149,999.99 the firm still makes a prof…

That only makes sense and in the case where added product quality in the market doesn't expand the total market, it cannibalizes, dollar-for-dollar, sales that would have been made elsewhere. This also means all the marginal value in your industry is actually being captured by your customers (this might make sense if you have a competitive market on your side, but are selling into a monopsony.)

If you find yourself in that unusual situation, your concern probably isn't with paying your engineers properly, it's with reorienting your business so it's not locked in that kind of market.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#50

Post by cassm »

zhemao wrote: post #35
dpandey wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was 10K per employee (that'd be a ridiculous amount of soda). It was 10K total.

I thought it would be fun to do the math on this one. A 12-pack of coca cola cans is $5.00 USD. So 10K would buy 24K cans of coca cola. If that was their yearly soda budget, it would be 66 cans per day. So yeah, obviously an absurd amount for a single person to be consuming.

Ah. Sounds like Noxious Frank is out and about again.
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