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Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

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Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#41

Post by Terr_ »

coldtea wrote: post #22
nxc18 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this obsession with the "purpose" of dreaming. As far as I have experienced its just noise on the wire that we sometimes are conscious enough to recognize. Having spent enough time in extremely sleep-deprived states for projects recently, I've experienced firsthand a lot of funky stuff going on (e.g. falling asleep and waking up with a full page of class notes in front of me, or realizing that I've…

> As far as I have experienced its just noise on the wire that we sometimes are conscious enough to recognize. If it was actual noise it would have absolute minimal statistical chance of having any coherent structure.

Humans appear to be hardcoded to find patterns even when (from a causal and mathematical perspective) they do not exist in the random data.

So "meaningful" output doesn't necessarily mean the input wasn't random.

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#42

Post by treenyc »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #4

You know how every generation conceives of the brain as a machine that's analogous to the latest technology of that generation? Like in the 19th century, the brain was a steam engine, and then in the 20th it was a computer? Well, apparently now the brain is a smartphone.

It is a human illness wanting to explain something to just stratify our rational thinking. In reality whenever there is a paradigm shift, the previous explanation becomes obsolete. So stop trying to explain things and go out an do it and experience for yourself.

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#43

Post by coldtea »

Kliment wrote: post #36
coldtea wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that explanation has much content. Mangled data with structure are not noise -- at worse they contain some noise (like a dirty dataset).

Consider a c struct describing a circle, with fields for position, radius, and color. Imagine you have a buffer full of random noise, and you cast it to an array of said structure. You then render the array to a screen, you'll get a bunch of randomly placed colorful circles, rather than a bunch of visual noise.

In this model a series of consecutive bytes has a predefined meaning existing outside of them (namely in the source code that defines the struct), so when they are read they are cast as a struct-circle object.

This also only works well for scalar fields, not associations (pointers in the C program's case) and more finely grained items.

Also, where would that (the definition of the "struct") happen with the brain? Is there any literature showing anything similar, that we have memory fields that pre-correspond to specific objects through some mechanism?

Besides, dreams can have very clear structure and narrative, which takes them outside the realm of what can be achieved with noise, unless the "struct" has fields that correspond to things like emotions, faces, narrative changes, etc.

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#44

Post by quonn »

coldtea wrote: post #43
Kliment wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a c struct describing a circle, with fields for position, radius, and color. Imagine you have a buffer full of random noise, and you cast it to an array of said structure. You then render the array to a screen, you'll get a bunch of randomly placed colorful circles, rather than a bunch of visual noise.

In this model a series of consecutive bytes has a predefined meaning existing outside of them (namely in the source code that defines the struct), so when they are read they are cast as a struct-circle object. This also only works well for scalar fields, not associations (pointers in the C program's case) and more finely grained items. Also, where would that (the definition of the "struct") happen with the brain? Is…

You can also take other analogies. Complex systems usually have several layers of planning or decision making and if you randomize on the top layers, it will still appear to be structured, because the top layers have different degrees of freedom.

To take another example, a self-driving car might make a decision to switch the lane. If you randomize on that level, it will randomly switch, but the movement will still be smooth, because this is done one or more layers below.

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#45

Post by titzer »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #4

You know how every generation conceives of the brain as a machine that's analogous to the latest technology of that generation? Like in the 19th century, the brain was a steam engine, and then in the 20th it was a computer? Well, apparently now the brain is a smartphone.

The difference is that this time around we have massively augmented our data processing capabilities and improved our ability to investigate brain function at multiple scales. We can now formulate falsifiable theories and test them. Science was still pretty immature in the 19th century in that it wasn't always possible to crisply state theories in ways that give rise to testable predictions.

Is the brain solely a computer? I don't know. But it certainly contains information processing aspects that we should study and understand, and as we understand them with these tools, we may find other frameworks to apply at different (perhaps higher) levels.

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#47

Post by geon »

visarga wrote: post #23
nfc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or We won't have true AI until AI explains the human brain as a "form of AI"

We won't have true AI until AI stands on its own. Just as a bootstrapped compiler can compile itself, an AI should be capable to reinvent itself without outside help. Until then, it's just a child-AI, dependent on human brains to be designed and optimized.

That's a pretty arbitrary definition.

And how long time do you give it? The human race haven't solved that problem in some 20k+ years. If we build an AI today, would you wait that long to decide if it is "true"?

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#48

Post by warfangle »

pizza wrote: post #2

Here's some amazing relevant research with so many consequences that I keep coming back to: Partial sleep in the context of augmentation of brain function Abstract: Inability to solve complex problems or errors in decision making is often attributed to poor brain processing, and raises the issue of brain augmentation. Investigation of neuronal activity in the cerebral cortex in the sleep-wake cycle offers insights in…

I wonder if this also explains some of the benefits of meditation. While focusing on one part of our higher functions, more areas of the brain cam slip into this low power state, without fully entering sleep. Which is why people feel refreshed and relaxed after a session.

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#49

Post by adrianN »

bemmu wrote: post #34
nxc18 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this obsession with the "purpose" of dreaming. As far as I have experienced its just noise on the wire that we sometimes are conscious enough to recognize. Having spent enough time in extremely sleep-deprived states for projects recently, I've experienced firsthand a lot of funky stuff going on (e.g. falling asleep and waking up with a full page of class notes in front of me, or realizing that I've…

I have never experienced this. How sleep-deprived do you have to be before you start dreaming while editing a document?

This is a question where the "wait and see" approach works.

Re: Portions of the brain fall asleep and wake back up all the time

#50

Post by stephengillie »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #4

You know how every generation conceives of the brain as a machine that's analogous to the latest technology of that generation? Like in the 19th century, the brain was a steam engine, and then in the 20th it was a computer? Well, apparently now the brain is a smartphone.

The brain is a network of routers.
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