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Dear JavaScript

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41–50 of 248 posts

Re: Dear JavaScript

#41
I do not think that every blog post about a piece of software has to have actionable advice for the maintainers. Sometimes you just want write a review and tell other people that something sucks.

It is true, that this is a community where people are working for free and I would personally try to consider that, when I say something online. It is generally good advice to assume, that other people are intelligent, too, and assume "there are valid reasons for this" before "they had other things to do" before "they are stupid".

Doing something for free however does not free you from criticism. Imagine a studio releasing a movie. Critics hate it, because it sucks. If the studio now sets the price to zero, does that automatically mean all critics have to be positive and friendly? No it does not. If something sucks, it sucks and you are allowed to write about it.

Re: Dear JavaScript

#42

It seems there are two things going on here. 1. Upset that people are now reacting negatively to this change as opposed to voicing criticism earlier 2. Being upset that criticism exists (2) is the sort of problem I can't help with except to say maybe grow a thicker skin or be a bit more aware of what it was you signed up for, but in regards to (1) - It's important to note that the people heavily invested in your proj…

The argument that people should grow thicker skin is part of the problem. Why do we expect people to grow thicker skin rather than expecting them to be more courteous/civil?

Edit: also the argument to grow thicker skin is seemingly ignorant of scale. Sure a few criticisms should be shrugged off but should thousands, which are disparate, incoherent and likely personally insulting, be part of the thick skin department? Where is the line drawn, and who draws it?

Re: Dear JavaScript

#43
post #5

I’ve always been advised to avoid these “sub-communities” like /r/javascript and Hacker News. Maintainers say they are filled with assholes who don’t know what they are talking about, angry idiots shouting at everything and everyone, cesspools, giant piles of trash burning in the wind. Is HN really that bad? I mean, it must be, if people maintaining popular open source projects think so... But why does it feel much m…

Over the years, I've seen my own projects get torn apart or receive praise, and it feels like (though I certainly can't prove it) there is a direct correlation to how much I test before releasing.

Because we have such a wider audience on the Web, it's really hard to develop an experience that fits everyone's expectations. And everyone definitely has their own expectations, with almost no consideration that theirs isn't necessarily the majority position. I've had people on Internet Explorer for Windows Phone bitch me out for not supporting their platform. Unfortunately, their noise can cause an out-sized effect on other people's opinion on other platforms, so you can't easily say that it's not cost effective to support niche platforms. On the other hand, something like an iOS app has such a smaller market, such a smaller set of potential use cases, with much higher activation energy, that in comparison it's a cake walk.

The hard thing is that, if you're just starting out, you don't know what you don't know. I think it's possible to release a JS project that gets received well. But there are just so many things you have to take into consideration before releasing a project. I had started to write a list of considerations, but I quickly realized it was getting unwieldy fast and I don't want to be here all day. I think it all comes down to "make the technology transparent". People shouldn't know what you used to build your project unless they go to your Github repo and see it immediately in your README. And I mean that in both the sense that there should be negative consequences to your technology choices that bleed through to the user, as well as you should make no mention of it in your marketing materials. Because marketing material should be 100% focused on selling, and the technology used to build a thing is so very rarely ever a good selling point. At best, it's a distraction. At worst, you'll alienate people for no good reason.

Put another way, it's hard enough to get people to show up, don't hand them excuses to leave. We get told to "release early, release often" a lot. And I believe in that concept very wholeheartedly. But it's in regards to features, not to defects. Work your TODO list until there are no known defects.

HN is definitely a lot better than Reddit, though. Reddit is random, as far as I can tell. Whomever is the first poster gets to set the tone for the thread, and then it's just piling on after that, usually devolving into inside-jokes repeating sound-bites (which are expressly forbidden here and/or will get you down-voted to hell)

Re: Dear JavaScript

#44

> It almost feels like you’re a politician at times. Because that's what he is. He's a self-chosen software politician who admits he loves his job. He's paid to travel the world and interact with his constituents. But he is upset that his audience sometimes writes a blog post, or worse, nominally approves of adding an arbitrary number to a database associated with a blog post. Somehow this is construed as a problem w…

You assume I was being paid to work on Babel. I was not. I worked on the UI team for Cloudflare, where we didn't even use Babel until earlier this year shortly before I left. I worked on open source on the weekend. The vast majority of open source maintainers are not paid in anyway whatsoever. Conferences pay me to fly places and stay in hotels because they make a profit off of me. Even now as I am paid to do open so…

> You assume I was being paid to work on Babel.

I didn't assume that. This post isn't about Babel, it's about the "JavaScript community", which you are being paid to work with.

> The vast majority of open source maintainers are not paid in anyway whatsoever.

I know. I'm one of them. I spend ~20 hours a week on open source on top of my full-time job. I know how stressful it can be, but I'll never complain about it because it's my choice to be involved. I'll definitely not be complaining about it if that 20 hours was something I was being materially compensated for.

> Conferences pay me to fly places and stay in hotels because they make a profit off of me.

Yes, this is how business works. Work is exchanged for tickets and advertising. Part of the work is being a presentable and knowledgeable speaker who can effectively engage and relate to the problems expressed by the audience.

> I don't think a single person on my team would expect me to tolerate people yelling at me.

If there are people harassing you that is indeed a problem -- get the police involved. That seems a completely separate issue from what's discussed in this post though, which is a community that sometimes discusses technical arguments in a way you consider abrasive.

Re: Dear JavaScript

#45
post #5

I’ve always been advised to avoid these “sub-communities” like /r/javascript and Hacker News. Maintainers say they are filled with assholes who don’t know what they are talking about, angry idiots shouting at everything and everyone, cesspools, giant piles of trash burning in the wind. Is HN really that bad? I mean, it must be, if people maintaining popular open source projects think so... But why does it feel much m…

> Is HN really that bad? It seems like there are some people trying to drive it downhill in a hurry - I know it's fashionable for anyone who's been on HN for any time at all to say it's going downhill, but turn on showdead for a while and see if you don't start to feel the same.

It is right there and I never knew it existed. Turned it on, got shocked by reading such nastiness, turned it back off.

The problem with negativity is that it takes much less effort to be negative than to be positive. And it's much more contagious.

Re: Dear JavaScript

#46

In the vein of "Worse is Better"[1]'s MIT/New Jersey split, my theory is that the online javascript community reflects a lot of what I would call the San Francisco/UI Design attitude (in contrast with, say, Java, which reflects the Palo Alto attitude.) The SF attitude is more driven by fashion, marketing and art/design world factors and less by raw commercial or technical aspects. This introduces a lot of subjectivit…

I disagree. A lot of technical design goes into JS projects. React is designed in a Herculean effort to minimize DOM refresh and thrashing. JQuery was built to fix very real problems: API incompatability between browsers, and extreme verbosity in common idioms. Babel is a compiler, with all that entails.

Re: Dear JavaScript

#47
When you try to sell something as the next best thing since sliced bread, expect some criticism if it doesn't deliver.

Re: Dear JavaScript

#48
post #20

I remember that angular 2 thread. Half of the problems were the breaking changes between release candidates. I was one of those early adopters, pushing my code along between releases. It was bad, but nothing I didn't expect. They talked about the changes and explained the motives clearly. I think the problem is people want to be bleeding edge without joining the community. Edit: question for James. What did you build…

> What did you build with angular 2? Is it public?

Heh, I build the same thing every time because I am not creative. Here's the Marionette version: http://marionettewires.com/

I could put it out there. The problem is that people assume when I share something that I am trying to tell them how things should be, like I'm some software design #thoughtleader genius. When really I'm just blindly trying to figure out what the hell I'm doing.

Re: Dear JavaScript

#49

I strongly suspect that the competitive environment in Javascript frameworks and :s/tool/fool/ing is the main source of the negativity: Trolls have the explicit agenda to demolish/demotivate what they're trolling in order to push their own project/framework.

This is a really shitty thing to say, which you clearly understand.

The 90/9/1 comes in to play here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture)

I have found that even sites like HN don't skew significantly far from this. As users, we can't know who the 90% of people are who read this site and never post. But there are definitely 9 times more people commenting than creating.

As an open source project maintainer myself, I have absolutely zero time to go talk shit about my competitors, even if I had shit to say about them.

Re: Dear JavaScript

#50
I don't want to distract from the main thrust of the article, which was that we should be decent to each other even with our criticism, but I think both his examples (Babel 6 and Angular 2) had something in common that lead to a lot more anxiety: they changed the essence of the software in a way that a major version bump is not enough to communicate.

I'm speaking especially of Angular 2 here. It's essentially a completely different framework. You don't expect going from Postgres 8 to Postgres 9 that the underlying query language is going to be switched out for a different one. Regularly communicating with your users, as Angular and Babel did, only reaches the engaged part of the community. A lot of workaday programmers are not that deeply engaged. You're just moving their cheese, and it makes them mad.

A better approach is to spin off a new system and give it a new name. This is what happened with Express and Koa, and it gives you a way to gauge whether people actually want the change you're making or not. I predict Angular 1 is going to be the Windows XP of front end development: lingering on for much longer than anyone expects. Slow and principled change is not a common thing in Javascript-land but it is what legions of software engineers expect. A lot of front-end development, like it or not, is being done by full-stack engineers or other engineers who are not front-end developers exclusively. Asking your echo chamber if they like your ideas is not really a sufficient sounding process, especially if you're making a deep cut.

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