Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd? • Hacker News Board

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#41

Post by facepalm » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

jonahrd wrote: post #6

facepalm wrote: post #2

People of color didn't become scientists because somebody made a chemistry kit in 1937 featuring an Egyptian slave. Girls didn't become scientists because some companies science competition described them as caring and nurturing during WWII. I've also heard different versions of the clock story. Not saying everybody has an equal start - for sure not everybody is or was encouraged to become a scientist to the same deg…

This is a painfully restrictive way to view the world. What's the harm in looking at this problem as a complex system that we can work on until we reach a solution? There are without a doubt societal pressure on women and people of color not to pursue careers in STEM. All you have to do is open your eyes a little bit and it's obvious.

The harm done is in pushing the wrong explanations, which makes it difficult to find the right solutions.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#42

Post by facepalm » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #32

Kroniker wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the stereotypical white-cis-male-scientist, this sort of statement has always bugged me. I was pushed from science at every turn- multiple teachers said I would be no good, wasn't allowed to take advanced courses in HS, was seen as a wannabe by friends and peers, but at every step I also saw a concerted effort to get women and minorities into my field of choice (physics). Support groups, gender or race only clubs…

Stereotypical childhood toys, gender stereotypes that widely persist despite the efforts of the people making those "women in science" banners and starting those clubs, the standard difficulties of entering a group or field where nobody looks like you, very widespread reports from women of discrimination and harassment, several studies where professors are less likely to respond to emails from people with minority-so…

A lot of that is anecdotes, like the harassment reports. You assume that all men are automatically welcomed into the high ranks of science, which is untrue. But they can't spin a story of "they rejected me because I was a man".

The toys might simply reflect preferences, why would companies be interested in pushing gender stereotypes? Yes, maybe more boys got a home computer for Christmas than girls - but how many girls had that home computer on their wish list?

Entering fields were nobody looks like you: maybe the women from Harvard is more similar to the man from Harvard than another man from community college, though? It's feminist theory to claim the difference between men and women is such a huge separator.

Some studies have some merit, like the response rate according to names, but it is not really enough to chalk it all up to discrimination.

As for the 80%, no it is not random chance - men and women are different.

My not-validated theory to explain it: maths is hard, let's go shopping! (Translation: women have other options).

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#43

Post by burkaman » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #42

burkaman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stereotypical childhood toys, gender stereotypes that widely persist despite the efforts of the people making those "women in science" banners and starting those clubs, the standard difficulties of entering a group or field where nobody looks like you, very widespread reports from women of discrimination and harassment, several studies where professors are less likely to respond to emails from people with minority-so…

A lot of that is anecdotes, like the harassment reports. You assume that all men are automatically welcomed into the high ranks of science, which is untrue. But they can't spin a story of "they rejected me because I was a man". The toys might simply reflect preferences, why would companies be interested in pushing gender stereotypes? Yes, maybe more boys got a home computer for Christmas than girls - but how many gir…

> You assume that all men are automatically welcomed into the high ranks of science, which is untrue.

No I don't.

> Yes, maybe more boys got a home computer for Christmas than girls - but how many girls had that home computer on their wish list?

Exactly, I'm glad you see the problem. Everyone unconsciously adopts stereotypes based on how people around them act, and what they see in the world. Children are especially susceptible.

> Entering fields were nobody looks like you: maybe the women from Harvard is more similar to the man from Harvard than another man from community college, though?

Good point, class and upbringing are diversity issues too. You do see a lot of efforts to introduce computing and sciences to low-income schools and neighborhoods, which is great.

> Some studies have some merit, like the response rate according to names, but it is not really enough to chalk it all up to discrimination.

Nothing is 100% discrimination, but where it's a problem, it should be addressed.

> As for the 80%, no it is not random chance - men and women are different.

> My not-validated theory to explain it: maths is hard, let's go shopping! (Translation: women have other options).

Oh, I see. Should have read your whole comment before I started writing a response.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#44

Post by jonahrd » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #41

jonahrd wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a painfully restrictive way to view the world. What's the harm in looking at this problem as a complex system that we can work on until we reach a solution? There are without a doubt societal pressure on women and people of color not to pursue careers in STEM. All you have to do is open your eyes a little bit and it's obvious.

The harm done is in pushing the wrong explanations, which makes it difficult to find the right solutions.

Then what exactly is it you're doing? Because to me it looks like you're trying to somehow excuse the way society is structured that keeps women and POC out of STEM, and push the wrong explanation that it's somehow their fault for not choosing STEM in the first place. This isn't a productive vantage point to look at this problem from.

Obviously things have been changing slowly, but my point is that if you have ever talked to a woman or person of color about their experience in this career path, there would be mountains of really disturbing stories and examples of pressure/patronizing behavior/flat out harassment that keeps them from feeling welcome in the career they've been studying for sometimes decades. Not to mention all the subconscious biases we have related to the fact that girls never really had the social support to keep pursuing their interest in tech from a young age, while boys did.

I really encourage you to talk to some people around you and ask about their experiences, not because I'm blaming you personally, or all white men personally, for causing these issues. But because as a society we need to be much more aware of the larger forces at play in how our world is structured, and take part of the responsibility of fixing them.

Re: Who Gets to Be a Science Nerd?

#45

Post by rokosbasilisk » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 12:33 AM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #42

burkaman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stereotypical childhood toys, gender stereotypes that widely persist despite the efforts of the people making those "women in science" banners and starting those clubs, the standard difficulties of entering a group or field where nobody looks like you, very widespread reports from women of discrimination and harassment, several studies where professors are less likely to respond to emails from people with minority-so…

A lot of that is anecdotes, like the harassment reports. You assume that all men are automatically welcomed into the high ranks of science, which is untrue. But they can't spin a story of "they rejected me because I was a man". The toys might simply reflect preferences, why would companies be interested in pushing gender stereotypes? Yes, maybe more boys got a home computer for Christmas than girls - but how many gir…

https://mobile.twitter.com/DanBeale1/status/8058790825966592... Head ups, a twitter account for some reason has a link to your comment, probably to manipulate up or down votes. I dont know what official policy is about that.