Is there a way to cheaply store ethanol long term and prevent it from turning back into co2?
Barrels.
Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
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Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#42Something that annoys me with these articles is that such processes are usually praised as carbon capture at the same time as it is energy storage. Well yes, but not both at the same time. And I really doubt its effectiveness as energy storage in the first place - why would you burn fossil fuels (with a loss), then gather energy with renewables to capture back the CO2 (with a loss) and then use the energy of the etha…
One idea goes like this: We use nuclear or renewables to power a process to capture extant CO2 to be used as fuel, which turns it back to CO2, which will be recaptures, so run-away processes are reigned in. (I can tell by your comment that you get this.)
Here's the kicker: the energy density of liquid fuels is super-hard to beat. Batteries (and super-capacitors) are getting better, but relatively speaking, on a whole bunch of dimensions, it doesn't get much easier economically, technically or infrastructurally than burning some hydrocarbon. Hopefully sulfur and mercury free.
Tieing "the energy of the future" with "the infrastructure of today" is a very attractive concept that draws a lot of funding from a lot of folks. And researchers, in labs, are working on things that have various limitations of their own, such as "well, gosh, how do you make a copper-iridim-mesh-alloy-hydromister in volume?"
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#43I don't get the point of this. We already have a self propagating machine that can turn carbon dioxide into a useful carbon substrate that is stable over long time periods, and is a thoroughly proven carbon sequestration technology. It's called a tree.
I do agree wholeheartedly, but the problem with trees is that they die and then they rot releasing all that carbon back into the atmosphere. It's a good start though! It be awesome if we had some sort of technology that sequestered carbon (where it be in the form of CO2 or wood chips, and sorted that carbon in a solid form effectively indefinitely. for trees to be a permanent solution, we would have to convert 50% of…
Charcoal?
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#44This strikes me as a Hail Mary play by the fossil fuel industry to make us think--for a little more profit for them--that it's okay to burn carbon. I don't buy it.
Most people in Tennessee don't care about burning carbon so I don't see why they'd need a "hail mary play".
I'd presume that people in Tennessee may still prefer to burn a carbon-based fuel that does not leave behind a toxic ash slurry [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly... http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2015/may/10/r...
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#45I used to read PopMech in the bathroom, but years ago it fell far below even that modest standard. Today, I wouldn't wipe myself with it.
"By using common materials..." Which ones? In what arrangement? How would it scale to the level of atmospheric scrubbing?
They mention copper and carbon later, but fail to mention if that carbon is in the form of nanotubes, or some more easily mass-manufactured form. If you read this article and come out of it with fewer questions than you did going in, you're doing it wrong.
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#46I don't get the point of this. We already have a self propagating machine that can turn carbon dioxide into a useful carbon substrate that is stable over long time periods, and is a thoroughly proven carbon sequestration technology. It's called a tree.
I do agree wholeheartedly, but the problem with trees is that they die and then they rot releasing all that carbon back into the atmosphere. It's a good start though! It be awesome if we had some sort of technology that sequestered carbon (where it be in the form of CO2 or wood chips, and sorted that carbon in a solid form effectively indefinitely. for trees to be a permanent solution, we would have to convert 50% of…
The co2 released by a dead tree is captured again by the next tree. So don't look at single trees but at whole forests.
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#47>potentially creating a new technology to help avert climate change >The reaction turns CO2 into ethanol, which could in turn be used to power generators and vehicles. I am no scientist, my question is this: wouldn't it be a zero sum game at best? You are taking C02 out of the atmosphere, turning it into fuel, which then is used in C02 emitting engines.
> I am no scientist, my question is this: wouldn't it be a zero sum game at best?
Worse than zero sum.
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Batteries might be more expensive than storing energy in liquid fuels. They have a limited number of charge cycles after all, whereas a vat of Ethanol can be refilled forever. There is also a large number of motors available that can burn Ethanol, but a significantly smaller number of electric vehicles.
1.) electric vehicles are also vastly simpler mechanically, so what you gain with energy storage efficiency in gasoline tanks you loose with their complex motors. 2.) if cheap energy density is the problem they want to solve, then this process at least needs to be compared to using the land to grow plants in order to turn them into ethanol fuel. So a comparison like "wind farm under average conditions + ethanol farmi…
Many people dislike growing plants for Ethanol production because they compete for arable land that can be used to produce food. Solar and wind farms can be built in places where agriculture is not viable.
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#49>potentially creating a new technology to help avert climate change >The reaction turns CO2 into ethanol, which could in turn be used to power generators and vehicles. I am no scientist, my question is this: wouldn't it be a zero sum game at best? You are taking C02 out of the atmosphere, turning it into fuel, which then is used in C02 emitting engines.
>I am no scientist, my question is this: wouldn't it be a zero sum game at best? You are taking CO2 out of the atmosphere, turning it into fuel, which then is used in CO2 emitting engines.
Indeed, it's a losing game, not even zero sum. But it's suitable for some scenarios: absorb the renewable production peaks (broad daylight, wind blowing, massive output from solar panels and wind turbines), now you have a reserve for when production is lower than demand. Bonus, this reserve is not just a battery, you can fuel cars with it. Or fill a lake if you really have a lot. whatever.
Re: Scientists Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 into Ethanol
#50"Efficient" here does not imply "economic viability," which the original article suggests is out of reach for this technique.
Should click-baity science articles be flagged on HN? I don't know.