C2 wiki closed for remodeling • Hacker News Board

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#41

Post by dpark » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

inimino wrote: post #40

dpark wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should respect Ward Cunningham's choices in maintaining the site how he wants, in whatever way works for him This is an unhealthy attitude and I'm continually surprised that people say things like this. Having respect for someone does not mean that they are above criticism. It doesn't mean silent obedience. You can respect someone and still say, "hey, this thing you're doing is a bad idea."

Where did I say "above criticism" and what does "obedience" have to do with this? (Is Mr. Cunningham bossing you around?) The attitude that actually is unhealthy is when someone graciously provides a service to the community for years, and then stops doing that, and people whine as though they are entitled to the continuation of that service. Respect in cases like this should mean to appreciate the work done to keep…

You very much stated and continue to state that no one should complain about Cunningham's choice here out of respect. This absolutely implies that his action is above criticism and that the appropriate response is to remain silent. This is painfully obvious from your last line. You say "respect that choice" and clearly mean "accept it and shut up".

I don't think it counts as "whining" to ask if there is another way (e.g. switch to static content) to address Cunningham's concerns/costs without outright taking the wiki down.

In no way do I think Cunningham owes the community continued indefinite hosting of the wiki. At the same time, its removal is a loss to the community and it's unsurprising that some would ask if this could be handled differently.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#42

Post by inopinatus » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 3:30 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #24

labster wrote: post #5

I was afraid that they'd get taken in by this federated wiki nonsense; I fear we might have lost one of the greats to second system syndrome. Federated wiki is a cool idea and all, but I don't want to have to build my own wiki of everything, or decide what concepts should be included in my own wiki. The whole strength of wiki to me is that it massively multiplayer user curated content, where the whole state is determ…

Has federated anything every really caught on?

The USA.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#43

Post by superkuh » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 3:38 AM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #37

The (baffling) explanation given is that Ward Cunningham has one computer, and serving the wiki from it made it slow for other work: So why close? It gives me room to work. The continuous scraping bumps up against my web throttling making all other web services useless. Even shell is painfully slow. The other work seems to be the conversion of the original wiki into a federated wiki. The page meanders through a confu…

Running a web server on your home machine is the best way to be part of the internet rather than a consumer of services provided by corporations over the internet.

It does sound like he needs a better QoS or bandwidth limiting mechanism though.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#44

Post by wpietri » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 3:53 AM UTC

dpark wrote: post #41

inimino wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I say "above criticism" and what does "obedience" have to do with this? (Is Mr. Cunningham bossing you around?) The attitude that actually is unhealthy is when someone graciously provides a service to the community for years, and then stops doing that, and people whine as though they are entitled to the continuation of that service. Respect in cases like this should mean to appreciate the work done to keep…

You very much stated and continue to state that no one should complain about Cunningham's choice here out of respect. This absolutely implies that his action is above criticism and that the appropriate response is to remain silent. This is painfully obvious from your last line. You say "respect that choice" and clearly mean "accept it and shut up". I don't think it counts as "whining" to ask if there is another way (…

> This absolutely implies that his action is above criticism and that the appropriate response is to remain silent.

It does not. An alternative explanation: We recognize him as an autonomous adult who does not owe us anything. We trust that if he wants our advice, he will ask us for it.

Ward Cunningham has a long track record of doing very smart things. I met him a number of times at the early conferences, and he was consistently sharp, kind, and generous with his time.

To criticize his decisions about what he does with his own stuff is a level of presumption that I would be unlikely to indulge in. Just because I don't understand what he's doing doesn't mean he doesn't understand.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#45

Post by thaumasiotes » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 3:57 AM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #42

TylerE wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has federated anything every really caught on?

The USA.

There's a pretty pronounced trend in the US to be less federated. For example, "states' rights" is commonly viewed as a euphemism for "racism".

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#46

Post by dpark » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 4:15 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #44

dpark wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You very much stated and continue to state that no one should complain about Cunningham's choice here out of respect. This absolutely implies that his action is above criticism and that the appropriate response is to remain silent. This is painfully obvious from your last line. You say "respect that choice" and clearly mean "accept it and shut up". I don't think it counts as "whining" to ask if there is another way (…

> This absolutely implies that his action is above criticism and that the appropriate response is to remain silent. It does not. An alternative explanation: We recognize him as an autonomous adult who does not owe us anything. We trust that if he wants our advice, he will ask us for it. Ward Cunningham has a long track record of doing very smart things. I met him a number of times at the early conferences, and he was…

Does "we respect Ward Cunningham" mean we should sit silently when we disagree with his decision or not? It's either yes or no and speaking of autonomous adults and smart things doesn't change that.

Either respect means we shut up when we disagree or it doesn't. You can't claim that respect doesn't mean we should shut up and then claim that we should shut up in this case ... because of our respect for Ward Cunningham.

And I'd like to be super clear that Ward Cunningham doesn't owe me anything and if he wants to turn off his wiki and burn the archives that's his business and I actually don't care too much and I wish him all the best regardless. What I don't like is this frequent assertion that criticizing someone's actions implies a lack of respect, or conversely that respect implies silence in the face of disagreement.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#47

Post by int_19h » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 4:17 AM UTC

duskwuff wrote: post #14

nchelluri wrote: post #9

> Smallest Federated Wiki is a software platform developed by Ward Cunningham which adds forking features found in software development tools like GitHub to wikis.[1] The project was launched at IndieWebCamp 2011.[2] The software allows its users to fork wiki pages, maintaining their own copies. > > Federation supports what Cunningham has described as "a chorus of voices" where users share content but maintain their…

> In short I guess if I disagree with a page instead of editing it and starting an edit-war I can fork it. Which I'd expect to lead to less of a "chorus" and more of a cacophony of voices as every disputed change, every contentious rewrite, leads to another fork of the original. Merging software branches can be hard enough. Merging "forks" of English text is horrendous, and gets worse the further the forks are from e…

Software doesn't stay forked all that long in practice, usually, because maintaining your fork is much more effort than creating it, and making your popular is more effort still.

I would expect the same dynamics to be true here - yes, there will be plenty of short-lived forks, but hardly anyone will actually notice them; and community will effectively "bless" one fork, or maybe a few major forks for particularly debated issues, as the official one, and that's what most people will see, and where most activity will take place.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#48

Post by inimino » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 4:19 AM UTC

dpark wrote: post #41

inimino wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I say "above criticism" and what does "obedience" have to do with this? (Is Mr. Cunningham bossing you around?) The attitude that actually is unhealthy is when someone graciously provides a service to the community for years, and then stops doing that, and people whine as though they are entitled to the continuation of that service. Respect in cases like this should mean to appreciate the work done to keep…

You very much stated and continue to state that no one should complain about Cunningham's choice here out of respect. This absolutely implies that his action is above criticism and that the appropriate response is to remain silent. This is painfully obvious from your last line. You say "respect that choice" and clearly mean "accept it and shut up". I don't think it counts as "whining" to ask if there is another way (…

Maybe we just have different perspectives.

I think it is safe to assume that Cunningham is familiar with the concept of static pages, and presumably has his reasons. Accepting that decision and seeing what comes of it seems better to me than all this arm-chair quarterbacking.

There's no lack of people who aren't doing the work but have strong opinions on how it should be done.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#49

Post by 1057x31337 » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 4:47 AM UTC

inimino wrote: post #29

1057x31337 wrote: post #25

The part I don't understand is why they would take down a working site. They should of waited until they were ready to switch over.

("should of" should be "should have") The post explains this. Closing gives space. That could be technical, psychological, social. Shutting down what's there is cleaner. If you miss it, this would be a good chance to thank the people who kept it running all this time.

Good to know, thanks.

Re: C2 wiki closed for remodeling

#50

Post by inopinatus » Sun, Oct 16, 2016, 4:54 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #45

inopinatus wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA.

There's a pretty pronounced trend in the US to be less federated. For example, "states' rights" is commonly viewed as a euphemism for "racism".

I don't necessarily mean the states -> USA relationship. One of the things I've come to understand, as a regular visitor to the US, is that there's a community for everybody. No matter how idiosyncratic (or even extreme) your political, social and economic preferences, you can find a community to take you in. And if you can't, you can create one and find others of like mind. And somehow it all still comes under a single umbrella notion of being "American". This exists practically nowhere else on earth. And I say that as a resident & citizen of another country that has a federated state structure.

And yes, I know it's a work in progress, and that this hasn't lead to equity of representation or systemic fairness. But still, in my view, establishing that framework and unifying je ne sais quoi in the face of such diversity is the single greatest political accomplishment of the last few hundred years.