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Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

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Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#41
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just reading their report quickly, it doesn't look like they're controlling for a lot of things, and are measuring non-target cultural factors which skew their correlation. (Of course, they don't even mention their methods, because it likely would be such an obvious source of criticism with their conclusion.[1]) Which isn't to say I'm right either, and certainly raises a bigger question about it, but back to my point…

Their methods are listed under the "about the data" tab, which links to http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/aboutthedata/ : > This information has been meticulously sourced from the three largest, most comprehensive and impartial crowdsourced databases on police killings in the country: FatalEncounters.org, the U.S. Police Shootings Database and KilledbyPolice.net. We've also done extensive original research to further…

I meant their methods of analysis for that specific report, not gathering their base dataset.

I did, however, already download their dataset to look through it later, when I have more time.

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me. Racist. Against white people. I think you might need more practice at your local comedy club's open mic night. What I said was, there was a hypothesis, it made a testable prediction, and measurements support that hypothesis. This is sometimes called evidence. I then pointed out that "proof" is not a simple concept. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_(truth) : > The concept applies in a variety of discipl…

> What I said was, there was a hypothesis, it made a testable prediction, and measurements support that hypothesis. This is sometimes called evidence. If the hypothesis is "police are racist against black people when deciding to use force", then no, measurements don't support that hypothesis at all or too weakly to reject the null hypothesis -- we haven't measured the coupling to demographics to get a good prior esti…

I guess for you it's way more sexy to call me a racist against white people.

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#43
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment about being uncharitable was more part of the wider context of my comments, not directed at you in particular. (There were some common threads to complaints about my posts; I wanted to address them one place so I could reference it. The medium gives a certain incentive to "speak to the crowd" so your posts read as a consistent voice, rather than several conversations.) > I think that "small percentage" th…

Well, I guess, I am more wondering what you, personally, are doing to "solve poverty" and that isn't merely some rhetorical device or idle curiosity. I run at least three websites intended to get useful info into the hands of the most vulnerable and needy. I am not a fan of policy advocacy and I wonder why you are putting so much time and energy into this argument. If it is a derail, why are you spending time and att…

> I am not a fan of policy advocacy and I wonder why you are putting so much time and energy into this argument.

Well, for starters, policy (and politics in general) is a big deal.

For instance, the city I'm in is spending about $50 per person in the metro on homelessness every year (which works out to about 1% of the budget). So not only does politicking shape how they spend my $50 yearly "contribution", it shapes how they spend everyone else's $50, which adds up pretty quickly in a major metro. It works out to about $13k per year per person currently on the streets, so programs with a 3 year duration would have about $4k per person per year to work with from the city.

That's, perhaps, not enough to just outright solve the problem -- but we're within an order of magnitude. And helping steer something within that kind of striking range of the problem is way more than I could do through other channels.

That being said, the next most important thing I do is tutor in poor areas. I charge a lot to teach privileged children math (and not to brag too much, but my students usually go on to do well in their future math classes), but offer those services at a steeply discounted or free rate for people who can't afford it. It'll only directly impact a few lives and only to a limited extent, but at some level, that's all it really takes. That if we really want to break things like cyclic poverty, we need everyone to put in a couple hours of professional effort a week/month, and sustain the adjustment for a generation or two. Again, advocacy is important -- we have to convince our peers that it's worth it to put that effort in. But that's how the world really changes, with the waxes and wanes of small, every-day social trends.

And I've been known to make the occasional spur of the moment donation or buy random meals, but I don't really count that. I mean, I'm sure it helps in small ways -- a good meal counts for a lot, and being acknowledged or treated as a person can mean as much -- but it's not really moving the ball forward on the problem. (Though, again, if everyone just did a little bit of that, it probably would make a big difference, cumulatively.)

But let me ask you this: when we live in a land and time of plenty, when we have enough food, wealth, and homes for everyone with margins left over, what makes you think homelessness is anything besides a policy and advocacy issue?

Homelessness (in the US) is an artificial outcome of our economic model, it's existence a choice we're making (as a society), and we should never forget that.

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#44
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I said was, there was a hypothesis, it made a testable prediction, and measurements support that hypothesis. This is sometimes called evidence. If the hypothesis is "police are racist against black people when deciding to use force", then no, measurements don't support that hypothesis at all or too weakly to reject the null hypothesis -- we haven't measured the coupling to demographics to get a good prior esti…

I guess for you it's way more sexy to call me a racist against white people.

Well, yes.

But if you want to address one rhetorical flourish in calling you out for assuming a link between police shootings and demographics which supported your position without addressing equally valid and likely links which didn't support your position as "racist" merely because it involved you assuming that one race (by virtue of being that race) was the victim of racism, when the data suggests that it's possible either is the victim of racism, then you are correct, it's not strictly speaking racist.

But you're well in to very technical arguments about why that's not racist.

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#45

An honest question: what's up with the use of the word "murder"? I'm not asking that to start a fight over whether these shootings were justified. I'm asking because that word has a specific criminal definition, and news organizations typically have very strict policies on implying criminal guilt (witness the pre-conviction use of "alleged X" even in the most obvious of cases). As I understand it, most of the names d…

You could look on it as lexicographical civil disobedience. If it's impossible to get justice because the killer was wearing uniform what's the value in the judgements of justice system? If so many cases of behaviour that would lead to a conviction, don't, that conviction loses starts to lose some of its meaning. If an officer is so rarely convicted for murder, at what point does it remain meaningful to use the word…

From the wikipedia (which confirms my prior understanding):

>Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought. This state of mind may, depending upon the jurisdiction, distinguish murder from other forms of unlawful homicide, such as manslaughter.

Murder is both specifically unlawful (which is debatable in this case, even if we don't want it to be), and specifically premeditated (which it almost certainly is not). So I'd say murder is probably not accurate in common law jurisdictions, especially U.S. jurisdictions.

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I guess, I am more wondering what you, personally, are doing to "solve poverty" and that isn't merely some rhetorical device or idle curiosity. I run at least three websites intended to get useful info into the hands of the most vulnerable and needy. I am not a fan of policy advocacy and I wonder why you are putting so much time and energy into this argument. If it is a derail, why are you spending time and att…

> I am not a fan of policy advocacy and I wonder why you are putting so much time and energy into this argument. Well, for starters, policy (and politics in general) is a big deal. For instance, the city I'm in is spending about $50 per person in the metro on homelessness every year (which works out to about 1% of the budget). So not only does politicking shape how they spend my $50 yearly "contribution", it shapes h…

Thank you.

Long before I was homeless, I had a class on Homelessness and Public Policy through SFSU. I am aware policy matters. But, I am kind of a fan of That government is best which governs least.

When I was first on the street, I went to meal sites, etc for a time. I mostly hate programs intended to "help the homeless." They mostly suck. Homeless people are just people without housing. If we get off the street, we stop being The Homeless.

If we focused more on solving things like the huge shortage of affirdable housing in this country, a lot more people like me could solve our own damn problems without having to go through some program where we will be treated like idiots who should be grateful for what is often rather abusive treatment. Let me recommend these two links:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12639356

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/07/minimum-dece...

Thank you very much for teaching math. That is always a good thing. I tutored math for free as a member of Mu Alpha Theta (a collegevlevel math honor society) in 11th grade. A lot of math instruction really sucks. Props to you on that account.

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could look on it as lexicographical civil disobedience. If it's impossible to get justice because the killer was wearing uniform what's the value in the judgements of justice system? If so many cases of behaviour that would lead to a conviction, don't, that conviction loses starts to lose some of its meaning. If an officer is so rarely convicted for murder, at what point does it remain meaningful to use the word…

From the wikipedia (which confirms my prior understanding): >Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought. This state of mind may, depending upon the jurisdiction, distinguish murder from other forms of unlawful homicide, such as manslaughter. Murder is both specifically unlawful (which is d…

> and specifically premeditated (which it almost certainly is not)

No, "malice aforethought" does not, in modern US usage, actually equal premeditation; there are four distinct states all held to be encompassed within "malice aforethought" [0]:

i. Intent to kill,

ii. Intent to inflict grievous bodily harm short of death,

iii. Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"), or

iv. Intent to commit a dangerous felony (the "felony murder" doctrine).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought#United_Sta...

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not a fan of policy advocacy and I wonder why you are putting so much time and energy into this argument. Well, for starters, policy (and politics in general) is a big deal. For instance, the city I'm in is spending about $50 per person in the metro on homelessness every year (which works out to about 1% of the budget). So not only does politicking shape how they spend my $50 yearly "contribution", it shapes h…

Thank you. Long before I was homeless, I had a class on Homelessness and Public Policy through SFSU. I am aware policy matters. But, I am kind of a fan of That government is best which governs least . When I was first on the street, I went to meal sites, etc for a time. I mostly hate programs intended to "help the homeless." They mostly suck. Homeless people are just people without housing. If we get off the street,…

I agree that a lot of programs for the homeless suck, and they suck for the same reason that a lot of prison programs suck, in that people often attach moral or social evaluations to the people involved -- homeless or criminals -- that just aren't true. They don't see "there goes me, except for a few lucky encounters", they see "there goes something I could never be".

Which is why I feel even more obligated to be involved on the advocacy side -- part (perhaps even all) of fixing the problem is changing the narrative in society about who the homeless are. Shaping that narrative, and the effect it has on choices about our economic model or policy decisions, really is the most direct thing I could do to combat homelessness, because it eats at the heart of what makes homelessness so damaging.

That being said, I'm also a big fan of more scientific methods. Things like "housing first" programs are showing HUGE promise in making lasting change, and while less glamorous, we're slowly tying the social safety net back together and working to make it more efficient, so less people fall through the holes (which got a lot bigger when certain people were in power and went around making tears, but c'est la vie) and become trapped in homelessness in the first place.

I have a lot of hope for involuntary homelessness being (largely) solved in another generation or two, if we can keep momentum on it. The problem of what to do with some of the people who are... less there mentally, and have trouble functioning in society at a personal level is of course difficult in the long term, because while we can give them houses easily enough, keeping them in them might require involuntary and on-going intervention at times, and that's a very touchy subject. Mental health care, particularly involuntary mental health care, has a dark history in this country.

I actually need to get going, but I've enjoyed speaking with you.

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#49

An honest question: what's up with the use of the word "murder"? I'm not asking that to start a fight over whether these shootings were justified. I'm asking because that word has a specific criminal definition, and news organizations typically have very strict policies on implying criminal guilt (witness the pre-conviction use of "alleged X" even in the most obvious of cases). As I understand it, most of the names d…

While I understand your concern, the entire point of database is to highlight police misconduct in the first place, and highlighting that many of these deaths were unnecessary.

I mean otherwise we'd call lynching's back in the 1900's "alleged murders" since most of them also didn't have murder convictions nor murder charges.

Though I guess they could use "manslaughter" instead?

Re: Police use-of-force data is finally coming to light

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could look on it as lexicographical civil disobedience. If it's impossible to get justice because the killer was wearing uniform what's the value in the judgements of justice system? If so many cases of behaviour that would lead to a conviction, don't, that conviction loses starts to lose some of its meaning. If an officer is so rarely convicted for murder, at what point does it remain meaningful to use the word…

From the wikipedia (which confirms my prior understanding): >Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought. This state of mind may, depending upon the jurisdiction, distinguish murder from other forms of unlawful homicide, such as manslaughter. Murder is both specifically unlawful (which is d…

To come at it from the point of view of my parent post. What conviction would a normal citizen normally receive if they shot someone with a gun? I have a hard time prosecutors wouldn't find a way to get the perpetrator tried for murder.
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