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80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

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Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have a hard time swallowing the argument that we pay scientists too much, or that society respects them too much. A distant observer might think this could be the case since, from their perspective, what they see as "scientists" are celebrated professors, showered with job stability, upper-middle-class incomes and book deals. But those lucky sods are vastly outnumbered by postdocs and tenure-track faculty, wh…

I won't deny the reality of modern day science worker. But the fact of they are paid/respected at minimum does not justify their motivation. Just like a typical minimum wage worker is not doing the work out of pleasure, a typical postdoc is not pursuing a career of pure knowledge. Of course there are some component in it, but from what I see, they are pursuing a career -- a tenure as you put it, an end result that is…

Ok, the vision of scientists as an ascetic class only appealing to the dyed-in-the-wool seekers of knowledge has some appeal. But, there's a problem there, too- sure, Einstein would still have published his breakthroughs, but many of the thousands of researchers whose works were the basis for his wouldn't have. The pace of scientific progress we're accustomed to now is the product of the work of thousands upon thousands of scientists; the contribution of celebrated geniuses like Einstein are dramatic but represent a rounding error compared to the whole rate of progress. We need a way to recruit and retain the rank-and-file ordinary-human researchers as well, and that requires compensation somewhat proportional to the effort they're putting in.

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#42
post #39

Considering past occurrences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal and general behaviour in online market places (my last experience was that the product was advertised to be shipped from Germany (expect fast delivery), but arrived a month later from China) then it should not come as very big surprise (I am not saying that this is normal or acceptable, but that it is not very surprising). My questio…

Face. In China (and Asia in general) it is perfectly acceptable to LIE in your face if the alternative could be embarrassing. Dont know something? Lie. Competition is better? Lie. Will miss the deadline? Lie with a wide smile while shaking your hand. Lying itself is _not_ embarrassing.

Socialism, in the sense that is completely salvagable amid Chinese capitalism, is the situation of everyone having to talk like a politician.

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#44
post #19
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that reputational risk is the same thing; I suspect one way to look at it is that a researcher who returns the null case is disrupting the organization by putting a lot of other peoples' work and assurances at risk. So there would be a significant amount of implicit social pressure to show results and maintain organizational harmony.

That sounds like academia anywhere.

Yep, publish or perish applies to academia everywhere.

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't deny the reality of modern day science worker. But the fact of they are paid/respected at minimum does not justify their motivation. Just like a typical minimum wage worker is not doing the work out of pleasure, a typical postdoc is not pursuing a career of pure knowledge. Of course there are some component in it, but from what I see, they are pursuing a career -- a tenure as you put it, an end result that is…

Ok, the vision of scientists as an ascetic class only appealing to the dyed-in-the-wool seekers of knowledge has some appeal. But, there's a problem there, too- sure, Einstein would still have published his breakthroughs, but many of the thousands of researchers whose works were the basis for his wouldn't have. The pace of scientific progress we're accustomed to now is the product of the work of thousands upon thousa…

I wouldn't go out and say Einstein is a rounding error :).

When we say science progress is built on top of giant's shoulder, that giant don't have to be and often is not just other/previous scientists. Engineering, culture, or even witch crafting all have contributed to science.

We need a lot of rank-and-file ordinary-human doing their ordinary works out of ordinary motivations, they will provide the basis necessary for the a few true scientists to question the known and explore the unknown.

Re: 80% of current drug applications in China failed to meet analysis requirements

#47

In chinese culture, losing one's "face" is one of the worst things that can happen to a person. I'm wondering whether the fact that 80% of data has been fabricated is a result of that. As in, "I have to make my findings significant to not lose my face", or, "Presenting negative findings to my superior will make me lose my face". Maybe someone more familiar with this culture could elaborate.

It's not about the face. It was clearly written there "local pharmaceutical companies trying to produce Western drugs struggle to turn a profit"... What about Theranos in the US? Same..

Isn't it because the turn everything into profit within two years "success or nothing" attitude?

If something ruins the world, it will be two countries that under the surface is way too similar to each other.

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