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Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

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Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#41

Post by anexprogrammer »

danso wrote: post #34
anexprogrammer wrote: post #23

Counter View. I don't expect this to sit well with HN. Is everything to be a sentence for life? I, and the law in many places, don't think that's fair. Whilst I don't think 2.5 yrs is the right balance, I do think much reporting should expire to an archive. If a restaurant did something wrong 10 years ago, but clean since (that's in the context of the UK with regular, visible, standards checks), who cares about the o…

It's a tough thing in some cases. When I was in college, it was very normal to print the names of students in the police blotter (e.g. "John Smith, sophomore in engineering, was booked on charges of public nudity on Friday"). The internet existed but Googling things was not a mainstream habit. Nowadays, I think many college blotters anonymize the names, and that feels right to me. We have a right to know what's on ca…

The legal expiry timer starts at date of sentence.

A John Smith might end up locally famous for a while, regret those Tequila shots leading to nude in the town square, damaging a statue, and a £500 fine. Some years after the magistrate passes sentence it ceases to exist and he's not obliged to tell. If you get three years for something more serious it never expires. If you're John Smith you're in luck having a common name, but if you have a rare name...

In former years the reporting is in some dusty library or newspaper microfiche archive forgotten until he runs for Prime Minister perhaps.

There's lots of cases where an innocent accused, or sometimes even the victim, can suffer significant reputational damage from a widely reported case. The adversarial system, and occasional trials by media, seems to encourage that.

I don't think having older, expired, reports of more minor offences moved to archive that charges to search, or requires you to have journalism ID or something leads to dumbification of anything. It shouldn't cease to exist, just become far less trivial to get at. More an attempt to restore balance, regardless of practicality.

A bad debt, even a lot of bad debt, expires in 5 or 6 years from your credit report, but a minor offence 20 years ago doesn't?

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#42

Post by hx87 »

Analemma_ wrote: post #35
hx87 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "right to be forgotten" should be replaced with the "right to not have old information considered", which is a much better compromise between the public interest and privacy. In your example, a person false accused of a crime wouldn't have the record expunged, but the record would be heavily tagged with notices that it was a false accusation, and it would be illegal to use that information in considering…

Considering old information, whether it's relevant or not, is something human psychology does automatically and inexorably. So when you talk about a "right to not have old information considered", you might as well speak of your right to jump off a cliff and soar through the air instead of hitting the ground. These European laws are doing their best to account for the unfair tendencies of human nature, while your cou…

/Noticing/ old information is automatic, but assigning valence to it and having it influence a decision to a significant extent isn't. I might not be able to notice that a person is left-handed, but that doesn't mean I will favor or disfavor them because of it.

> There's been some literature lately about people trusting their doctors/lawyers/etc. more when that person reveals that they have a conflict of interest. A similar backfire effect could well occur here.

A file stating that an accusation was false isn't admitting doubts or uncertainty, though, and it's that admission that leads people to trust advisors more when they reveal conflicts of interest. That file is flatly and loudly stating that the accusation was false.

> Oh good. Approximately when can we expect the social norms to change? And are you accounting for the fact that it may happen never?

Oh good. Approximately when can we expect law to change? And are you accounting for the fact that it may happen never?

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#43

Post by asbestas »

buro9 wrote: post #36
Retric wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we want something to be forgotten in X years we are better off blocking it being published. For example, I would argue that zero pre-conviction 'news' should be published about a defendant. It's directly counter to the idea of innocent until proven guilty. ED: One option might be to automatically use a different name. If I stop using "Retric" all my HN posts are divorced from my name. Abstractly, hearing about a 9…

My wife has the issue that she was the victim of a crime, and the news reported her in detail as the perp was underage and they couldn't publish his name. The result, my wife has had work colleagues ask about it, and one implied that she may have done something wrong to invite trouble. The victims and innocent in an incident can be affected by reportage too. We're European, and she tried to exercise the Right to be F…

This makes me so angry. Your poor wife! We have laws to protect the identity of victims in many cases in the USA for this very reason.

We really need to draw a firm line about this "blame the victim" behavior. I haven't experienced it in any grave crime, but I had my bicycle stolen and instantly had to deal with a litany of people saying I shouldn't have locked it with a cable lock (I wasn't even using a cable lock), I shouldn't have put it where thieves could see it, etc. We all know it's 1000x worse for other crimes, like sex crimes.

Victim blaming is comforting because it saves the blamers from the knowledge that life deals random blows and it could happen to anyone, including them. They'd much rather think that they are smart and safe, and that the victim did something wrong.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#44

Post by goda90 »

CaptSpify wrote: post #25
ythl wrote: post #4

We should just pass a new law called "The right to scrub your public image", which allows you to control how the public perceives you or your company online. If someone says something unflattering about you, you can force them to delete it. That's basically what all these European "privacy" laws are amounting to.

I've always kind of thought a better system would be one that lets you assume a new identity. This is a war that laws won't win. Data will get out, and once it's out, it's near impossible to get back. And people do make mistakes that shouldn't haunt them for the rest of their lives. A better system is one that lets you disassociate with that data.

It'd be pretty hard to get the new identity without revealing that you are in fact changing from identity X to identity Y. Because if that tidbit gets out, an algorithm can easily reassociate all the data of identity X with identity Y.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#45

Post by aaron695 »

People make mistakes.

We have never had the chance to genetically deal with or lived in societies where people don't forget.

And worse, now can in seconds find about your worst. Do you think in 50 years of life you won't make a mistake (Then 30+ years of people knowing about it)

Your small business can be your entire life.

We might not be currently solving this issue properly. But it is still an issue we are going to have to deal with.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#46

Post by joeframbach »

nickff wrote: post #37
tehwalrus wrote: post #6

"Winston Smith works as a clerk in the Records Department of the Ministry of Truth, where his job is to rewrite historical documents so they match the constantly changing current party line. This involves revising newspaper articles and doctoring photographs—mostly to remove "unpersons," people who have fallen foul of the party. Because of his proximity to the mechanics of rewriting history, Winston Smith nurses doub…

Thanks for posting this. Many are also persistently pushing to change what is 'acceptable' vocabulary to change how people think, as Orwell described in the Newspeak appendix.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#The_Newsp...

http://alexjs.com/ for example.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#47

Post by guelo »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #23

Counter View. I don't expect this to sit well with HN. Is everything to be a sentence for life? I, and the law in many places, don't think that's fair. Whilst I don't think 2.5 yrs is the right balance, I do think much reporting should expire to an archive. If a restaurant did something wrong 10 years ago, but clean since (that's in the context of the UK with regular, visible, standards checks), who cares about the o…

"X happened" is a historical fact. You cannot change the fact. You can wish it were not a fact because then the world would be a more fair just and beautiful place. But your wishes don't matter, the fact still stands. Like millions of dinosaurs wishing the asteroid hadn't hit because it would make their world better, it doesn't matter, the fact still stands.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#48

Post by powera »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #23

Counter View. I don't expect this to sit well with HN. Is everything to be a sentence for life? I, and the law in many places, don't think that's fair. Whilst I don't think 2.5 yrs is the right balance, I do think much reporting should expire to an archive. If a restaurant did something wrong 10 years ago, but clean since (that's in the context of the UK with regular, visible, standards checks), who cares about the o…

So it's better to legally require concealing the truth than it is to prevent employers from discriminating in this way?

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#49

Post by lloyd-christmas »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #41
danso wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tough thing in some cases. When I was in college, it was very normal to print the names of students in the police blotter (e.g. "John Smith, sophomore in engineering, was booked on charges of public nudity on Friday"). The internet existed but Googling things was not a mainstream habit. Nowadays, I think many college blotters anonymize the names, and that feels right to me. We have a right to know what's on ca…

The legal expiry timer starts at date of sentence. A John Smith might end up locally famous for a while, regret those Tequila shots leading to nude in the town square, damaging a statue, and a £500 fine. Some years after the magistrate passes sentence it ceases to exist and he's not obliged to tell. If you get three years for something more serious it never expires. If you're John Smith you're in luck having a common…

> if you have a rare name...

For some practical context: I'm the only person in the world with my name. If you google me, page 1 is my professional details, page 2 starts showing ARCHIVED forum posts from a decade ago, page 3 has high school newspaper clippings from 15 years ago. In 5 minutes, you've run through my life. I'm thankful I never had any legal trouble.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#50

Post by ivan_gammel »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #41
danso wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tough thing in some cases. When I was in college, it was very normal to print the names of students in the police blotter (e.g. "John Smith, sophomore in engineering, was booked on charges of public nudity on Friday"). The internet existed but Googling things was not a mainstream habit. Nowadays, I think many college blotters anonymize the names, and that feels right to me. We have a right to know what's on ca…

The legal expiry timer starts at date of sentence. A John Smith might end up locally famous for a while, regret those Tequila shots leading to nude in the town square, damaging a statue, and a £500 fine. Some years after the magistrate passes sentence it ceases to exist and he's not obliged to tell. If you get three years for something more serious it never expires. If you're John Smith you're in luck having a common…

It's much more difficult problem, because reputation damage happens not only as a result of court decision. A politician could say very dumb and offensive things when he was young - should it really affect his political career?
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