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Music theory for nerds

eev.ee

41–50 of 390 posts

Re: Music theory for nerds

#41
post #29

I've skimmed a lot of articles on music "theory" but none of them provide anything like what I'm looking for. A music theory should explain: 1. Why do we like pieces when played forward but not backward or inverted? 2. Why do certain sounds evoke certain emotions? 3. How could you write a program to pick out music that people find especially good (versus music that has surface similarities)? In other words, why does…

> 1. Why do we like pieces when played forward but not backward or inverted?

Why do we like text when read forward, but not backward or inverted?

There are, of course, works that are palindromic or otherwise written to be read/heard backwards, but most of the time that kind of global transformation tends to ruin the "spelling"/"narrative".

> 2. Why do certain sounds evoke certain emotions?

Just like text, evoking emotions needs some sort of narrative. A story isn't a single fact or statement (or a single sound); it's about how those facts (or sounds) flow or change.

In music you might hear a brief bit of new melody that foreshadows something big later in the song. A clear rhythm or melody might be repeated to get the listener to follow along only to have it cut short at a key moment to deny the obvious resolution (similar to a melodrama that suddenly reveals a new twist in the plot as a cliffhanger).

It's the story you tell that matters, and it takes a skilled composer to put sounds together to make a song emotionally evocative. The song that is mostly a 16 bar loop probably sounds boring (but not always!), while the song that introduces the same 16 bars and then plays with variations of it to create an initial conflict, rising action, and a climax is probably a lot more interesting. An obvious example might be Mozart playing Salieri's march in Amadeus[1]. It's not just that he embellished the simple march; Mozart adds a lot of variations that culminate at a comic ending.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5n0pkNpDWY

Re: Music theory for nerds

#42
post #29

I've skimmed a lot of articles on music "theory" but none of them provide anything like what I'm looking for. A music theory should explain: 1. Why do we like pieces when played forward but not backward or inverted? 2. Why do certain sounds evoke certain emotions? 3. How could you write a program to pick out music that people find especially good (versus music that has surface similarities)? In other words, why does…

When we have discordant sound (e.g. a collection of plucked strings where the fundamental frequency ratios are not in nice simple ratios, so that none of the overtones align), there’s a great deal of complexity to the sound, and you get interference patterns between them, similar to moiré patterns in images.

This causes “musical tension”.

Some types of discord are mild, and cause a bit of mild annoyance or “sadness” in the sound. Other types are aggressive and cause serious anxiety.

When you return most of the sounds to be in harmony, that tension is relieved. This causes a more positive emotional response. The greater the former tension, the more satisfying the release.

Imagine you’re in a crowd of applauding people, each clapping at a different rate, so that the sound is like a cacophony. Your brain can’t make out any pattern except a wave of sound. Now imagine the people start clapping in rhythmic unison, with some kind of structure. Suddenly your brain can make sense of the pattern.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#43
post #29

I've skimmed a lot of articles on music "theory" but none of them provide anything like what I'm looking for. A music theory should explain: 1. Why do we like pieces when played forward but not backward or inverted? 2. Why do certain sounds evoke certain emotions? 3. How could you write a program to pick out music that people find especially good (versus music that has surface similarities)? In other words, why does…

Those qualities aren't universal in people and as such what you are describing is more of a study of culture than musical theory. You would probably enjoy a music appreciation course, and possibly one taught by a philosophical professor.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#44
post #10
post #4

This has got to be some of the worst jargon and notation for anything, ever. Indeed. I'm a musician, and something non-musicians often ask (especially techies, it seems) is why we use such an archaic notation system. The reason is simply that a certain number of musicians have developed the skill of sight reading which is the ability to perform a composition directly from a written sheet, with little or no rehearsal.…

>why we use such an archaic notation system. The answer is, because it works, and nobody has managed to propose a better one.

It works well. I can sight read piano well. I do thus because the notation really does make sense; it's very dense, and I can read ahead many measures at a time.

This guy hasn't even figured out what's different between major send minor, or why the equal tempered system is used on keyboard instruments.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#45
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why we use such an archaic notation system. The answer is, because it works, and nobody has managed to propose a better one.

One attempt was Hummingbird. http://www.hummingbirdnotation.com

You can't read ahead easily with it. Totally useless.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#46
> It completely obscures the relationship between the pitches, though.

It doesn't actually obscure the relationship between the notes -- it makes them clearer. For example, I see the notes C, E, and G on some sheet music, maybe with some accidentals on some of those notes. I know that I'm therefore supposed to play a C triad. Now, there are multiple kinds of triads, but once I know I'm supposed to play a triad, it's easy to use context to pick out which one I need (major, minor, diminished, augmented -- usually one of the first two). If I were supposed to play a C# major triad, though, and the written notes were (C#-F-G#) as opposed to what they should be (C#-E#-G#) then that's confusing because it looks like I should be playing an arpeggiated sus4 of some kind. So the written nature of scales on the staff engenders an understanding of the relationship between the notes. Basically we write things the way we do so that the people reading the music can more efficiently pattern-match.

> C major is identical to A minor, and I don’t understand why we need both.

They're not identical. C major and A minor have the same notes in their respective scales. But we say that a piece is in the key of C major when it resolves to the a C major chord at the end, and we say a piece is in the key of A minor when it resolves to an A minor chord at the end -- an important concept for reasoning about how a piece is supposed to be performed.

> C minor: C D D# F G G# A# C

Eb, Ab, and Bb, not D#, G#, and A#.

> This has got to be some of the worst jargon and notation for anything, ever.

It's really not. Keep practicing. It makes sense, I promise.

I hear a lot of people -- usually people who have not been studying music for very long -- insist that the system would be more logical if there were no accidentals and there were 12 notes with distinct names and the staff had a bunch more lines on it. I've never bought it. The notation of music isn't arbitrary, it's informed by experience and it works.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#47
post #4

This has got to be some of the worst jargon and notation for anything, ever. Indeed. I'm a musician, and something non-musicians often ask (especially techies, it seems) is why we use such an archaic notation system. The reason is simply that a certain number of musicians have developed the skill of sight reading which is the ability to perform a composition directly from a written sheet, with little or no rehearsal.…

Sounds like vim!

Sounds like... And is it? ;)

In terminal run vimtutor. The sound will change.

Does anyone know of a similar tutor for sheet music?

Re: Music theory for nerds

#48
post #29

I've skimmed a lot of articles on music "theory" but none of them provide anything like what I'm looking for. A music theory should explain: 1. Why do we like pieces when played forward but not backward or inverted? 2. Why do certain sounds evoke certain emotions? 3. How could you write a program to pick out music that people find especially good (versus music that has surface similarities)? In other words, why does…

Music theory is an accepted and used term of art for the category of things that this article talks about. There are courses, books, university departments, and degree programmes that use the term. Nobody is going to stop using it because you skimmed it but it doesn't describe some other thing that you think it should. Some examples: * http://www.music.msu.edu/areas-studios/music-theory * https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

Grand parent is saying he wants an article that covers the "why does music sound good" part of music theory, something I want too. I think most people have a basic grasp of notes, scales and that a middle C is air oscillating at 440 cycles per second. How can you make something sound good is the interesting part of music theory for me and I still haven't found a good intro to it!

Re: Music theory for nerds

#49
post #9
post #3

if you were hoping for a nerdy treatise on musical rhythm, harmony, form, cadences, sequences and motifs, and evolution from baroque to classical to romantic to modern... well this is not it. edit: just a comment about the temperament- before the octave was equally tempered intervals were rational fractions of the root. after the equal temperament was developed instruments could go across different keys without sound…

I would love something like that. Any pointer?

A large part of it hasn't been researched very mathematically, to my knowledge. If you google music+grammar you can get some stuff with a linguistic approach, which may be less empirically grounded but certainly a richer theory than the alternatives. And don't get me wrong, science is good but as musician mathematician a richer theory that overreaches reality is much more fun, and besides most of this stuff is cultural not immutable so a wrong theory may become correct if is influential.

A few stray ideas that may or not be correct:

- Grammar of common-practice harmony is probably largely left-branching (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branching_(linguistics)). This is why so such music makes a surprising transition, then resolves it, and it's orthodox overall. Music is about where it's going.

- For a first approximation rhythm models the rational numbers, because all durations exist in a ratio to other duration.

- Now the rational numbers are infinitely dense and clearly humans can't do that. So there is a minimum resolution which has been wonderfully termed the tatum. Whoever did this however may or may not have realized that there may be a few minima whose join (as in lattices, I'm sure it's a lattice but I never leaned which one) isn't realized. E.g. you might have 8th notes and triplet 8ths but never triplet 16ths (the join).

- Form has all these stupid names when clearly it's a tree and similar structure repeated on every level.

- People sometimes try do do harmony wit a markov model. This sucks because how the chords transition depends on the form, which I believe must largely (needed to be orthodox/fluent) have a fair regular rhythm (avoid those 5-bar phrases). I think something like a ruler function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomae%27s_function) based on time + transitions would be a much better and relatively cheap model. If all the fancy grammar stuff is legit, then this too would be woefully inadequate.

- That said, the "meaning" is definitely in the transitions not the states (production rules in grammar case). A chord with no context has very little meaning (in equal temperament everything can be transposed with 0 informational change except for timbre). Given a key, a chord still has relatively little meaning (also 1 and only 1 key is a reduction, look up "tonicization", there is probably a stack of broad-specific key-like things forming a context). now given a trace of chords, the meaning comes out---tension and release as they say.

- For form and rhythm, 2 branching factor is the default. Everything else is extra work. Probably even in West Africa and other places where the polyrhythms are mad good.

- Emotional relationship definitely changes over time within a culture. Up to the 18th century major=happy minor=happy was far from universal. This is probably why even in popular culture old music is stereotypically all dark and serious.

- The big 5 components of (at least Western) music are (in no particular order) Melody, Harmony, Rhythm, Form, Timbre. Timbre has become more important over time, even before recorded music. Call me a cranky old cultural conservative, but you could say that Western Society is loosing it's collective understanding-of/ear-for Western music, and Timbre is the easiest to appreciate due to its lack of rich structure (as far as I can tell). And of course recorded and synthesized music means we can timbregasm all day.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#50

The explanation of the origin of major scale in the article is pure voodoo. Minor third is not a simple fraction - is that the reason to exclude it from the scale? How do you explain minor scale then? Maybe it should be excluded, too? Here're my thoughts on the subject. For some reason no one can explain, Western music settled on a system of 12 tones with equal temperament, This system emerged as a result of long evo…

> Minor third is not a simple fraction - is that the reason to exclude it from the scale?

The minor third is a 6:5 ratio. Does that change your mind?

Where do your tones and semitones come from? You've just rejected the explanation for why we have a 12-tone scale (it is a local optimum of tuning, closed under the operation of transposition, that satisfies lots of nice ratios), so what do you propose instead? Saying "no one can explain" is a cop-out.

To follow up: Major and minor scales are 7-tone subsets of the 12-tone scale that were discovered first. They allow for many of the same possibilities, but they're not closed under transposition, which is why we now have the 12-tone scale that includes all of them.

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