Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#41

Post by Oletros » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:29 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #33

Scirra_Tom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how is 0% tax on profits fair and reasonable exactly?

If you tax something, you get less of it. Either because you actually really get less of it, or because you encourage clever accounting. (Just look up Hollywood accounting..) People making profit isn't something we need to discourage. How about taxing CO2 emissions and eg alcohol consumption instead? (Something we can live with less off.) And the old classic: put most of the tax burden on unimproved land value. Land'…

Alcohol is already heavily taxed

> People making profit isn't something we need to discourage.

Who is discouraging it?

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#42

Post by andmarios » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

In 2014 Apple's effective tax rate was 0.005%. That is 5 cents for every $1000 in profits.

Even a patent troll could do better than Ireland...

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#43

Post by jdimov10 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

Time for Ireland to leave the EU too, I think.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#44

Post by Oletros » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

efdee wrote: post #40

bapbap wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money paid will go to Ireland. Ireland allowed Apple to structure its tax affairs in a way that reduced their tax bill which is a great incentive to maintain a presence there. The EU has now determined this was an illegal tax benefit provided by Ireland, so Ireland must now collect the tax as if it had done so at the time. There is no penalty but interest must be paid. This is not your normal run of the mill tax…

What I don't fully understand is why Apple is fined instead of Ireland. Edit: Maybe "fined" is not the correct term for this, but my understanding is that Ireland had granted Apple tax benefits which they shouldn't have granted. Isn't Ireland in the wrong here, rather than Apple?

Apple is not fined

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#45

Post by giovannibajo1 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

pluma wrote: post #18

chrisacky wrote: post #6

Can someone clarify where this money will eventually end up (assuming it's paid)? The article says that it will be paid back to Ireland, yet it looks like Ireland was somewhat complicit in allowing this fraud to continue for so long? ' Is this just how it works, money goes to Ireland, and then recovered by Europe?

AIUI the money is owed to Ireland but Ireland originally refused it, EC is now saying "no, really, you have to take it". Might be followed up by Ireland getting into trouble if they unfairly benefited from the deal? That said, I think Ireland owes the ECB money too, so they'll probably use that money to repay their debt? EDIT: Corrected EU->ECB as pointed out below.

If you're referring to the public debt, that's towards the ECB (private bank) not the EU (public institution).

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#46

Post by meira » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

So Ireland, the tech hub that would replace London, isn't going anymore?

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#47

Post by blackoil » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

mohdmasd wrote: post #25

justinv wrote: post #3

$14.5bn to be recovered.

Or they'll settle this so Apple pays $200 millions max in the end.

Nope, Ireland had kind of already settled this, which EU had declared invalid.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#48

Post by collyw » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #38

eru wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? Yes. To the tune of €13bn. At the scale Apple operates their legal team should be considering whether the deals they negotiate are legal in all the applicable jurisdictions, not just the local one. The Irish government should also have done a better job, so part of the blame lies with them, but that doesn't free Apple of all responsibility. In any cas…

If the owners aren't paying for it, then it should go to the public domain. The idea of someone "owning" land seems pretty stupid to me.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#49

Post by fauigerzigerk » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:31 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #13

rdslw wrote: post #4

Good. Read how Tim Cook publicly considers Nobel economist Joeseph Stiglitz as a one who do not know what he (Stiglitz) is talking about. Eye opening. Excerpts from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/wp/2016/08/13/2016... Q: What do you say in response to Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz’s comments on Bloomberg [television], where he called Apple’s profit reporting in Ireland a “fraud”? Tim Cooks answer: I did…

Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

You're right in general but this case is about something else. The commission claims that Apple had a special sweetheart deal with the Irish tax authorities that is not available to other companies that simply abide by Irish law.

Of course, Apple and the Irish tax authorities dispute that and the case is going to court.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#50

Post by toyg » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 10:32 AM UTC

beilabs wrote: post #31

6% of total Irish national debt... I wonder how much Irelands payroll taxes would have been were the corporations not to have set up shop in Ireland, they would have just gone somewhere with a decent tax arrangement. Unemployment in the 70's and 80's was brutal in Ireland, personally, I think the government at the time made the right choice, however, this "selective treatment" allowed Apple to pay tax rate of 1% on E…

You can't begrudge Ireland for trying to get ahead when things were really bad. However, they've long reached a point where tax dumping is not morally justifiable. They were repeatedly told to sort it out, and got off the hook a bit only because of 2008. Now they're back on their feet, it's time to come clean.

Next, Luxembourg and Netherlands.