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An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

washingtonpost.com

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Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#41

Post by jacques_chester »

keithpeter wrote: post #25

https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/Deactivating_Automatic_Cha... Type apostrophe at beginning of the gene name ('MARCH1) or format the column for gene names as text (click column letter, then Format | Cell and select text) If people want to use a spreadsheet application for this kind of data collection (and that is a big if I think) then they perhaps need to have some agreed lab protocols for setting up and checking t…

Ah, you beat me to EUSPRIG. A fine organisation whose research findings give me the heebie-jeebies.

Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#42

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Noseshine wrote: post #36
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You may put any value you like on the "entertainment" - but what it displaces has higher value. // Disagree. This conversation has a value, I [likely] can't derive anything financial from it, one might term it "entertaining" even [that wasn't supposed to sound quite so denigrating!]. The value is difficult to define, but it doesn't remove value from my life IMO. It possibly takes some time with which I can argue for…

You can disagree all you like - on what basis??? How do YOU know what I'm doing and what my time is worth? This discussion certainly has zero value - more like a negative value to have to encounter so annoying. Ridiculous! > This conversation has a value I covered that!!! Do you actually READ the comments you respond to? I mean, without the filter that removes the things that don't fit your narrative?

Lol, your indignation made me laugh ... um, does laughter have any value in your philosophical framework?

>I covered that!!! Do you actually READ the comments you respond to? //

Right back at your there - it has a value because I value it. Might seem a bit too self-referential but that's how value works.

>How do YOU know what I'm doing and what my time is worth? //

I don't. There's extrinsic and intrinsic values for sure - if you're chatting inanely to me on HN when you would normally be performing successful heart surgery on people who want to live longer then the opportunity cost [in terms of life enrichment for the people who would have been saved] is high, for sure, but that doesn't mean the intrinsic value is negative.

You appear to be arguing that because there is a potential for foregoing financial gain through having a conversation that the _value_ of the conversation -- the ability of it to enrich, educate, improve, entertain, etc. -- is negative. The true value can't be counted, you don't know it's effect on me and I don't know the effect on you (or others who are reading). Maybe an onlooker has read something in the conversation and that's inspired their PhD thesis on the teleology of communication.

IMO you appear to too readily decry the measurable negative aspect - potential for foregoing financial gain (opportunity cost) - whilst you under-estimate the potential for positive improvement, extrinsic value, and the like.

[FWIW Currently I'm suffering with mental health problems and this conversation has actually made me realise that I can be positive. I'm not saying this to try and shoe-horn in an extrinsic value, that's a genuine self-reflection.]

Happy to hear any further responses if you can steer away from declarations of "ridiculous!" and "annoying!" and illucidate why you feel it's ridiculous, how it conflicts with your value judgement in expanded terms?

Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#43

Post by jpindar »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #35
SNvD7vEJ wrote: post #13

Why is the auto-convert 'features' in Excel not opt-in? When Excel encounters the first cell in a new sheet that it thinks should be auto-converted, why does it not ask if that is desirable for that sheet? Like: "Do you want Excel to interpret and auto-convert all strings with format into the type in this sheet?" At least for conversions where the original data is lost.

I don't think Excel ever destroys the underlying data. It simply layers formatting over it. One can override by specifying custom formatting, or opt out by selecting all cells and setting their format to text.

If you enter a string whose first character is a "0" and Excel decides to change it to a number, the "0" is lost.

Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#44

Post by bonniemuffin »

dagaci wrote: post #12

First I thought this story was about math and numerical errors. But it's actually about auto- formatting and auto-correction. "Excel automatically converting gene names to things like calendar dates or random numbers" In this case, I think what is needed is some kind of rudimentary knowledge of data-types. Or perhaps more simply a scientific template which is actually plain text by default. But how are people not not…

How people don't notice: you have a list of thousands of gene names. It's impossible to be familiar with all of them, so it's hard to notice if one of them gets auto-corrected to something else.

The SEPT9 gene is problematic enough to be memorable, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPT9

Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#45

Post by TeMPOraL »

ethan_g wrote: post #38
Rapzid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excel is used HEAVILY at all levels of business for large, complex, and important things. I'm curious what this right tool is that they should be using instead.

Java, for example. Yes, it's true Excel is used for a lot of big important things, but I'd agree with GP it's not very good at them. Moreover, I think most people who use Excel for big important things, would agree it's not good for it--they get stuck in that situation when a small spreadsheet grows big over the years. Lack of version control, limited modularity, and no ability to unit test make large spreadsheets er…

The primary reason Java (and other programming languages) aren't, and won't be used instead of Excel is that Excel is interactive. About the closest you can get to that with a programming language is Lisp, but it's still half-way there compared to a spreadsheet, when you can see the data all the time as it is placed and updated.

The second big reason is that Excel just works, and all programming languages usually require installing tons of bullshit - editors, toolchains, whatever - to be able to work somewhat conveniently in them, and the moment any link in the bullshit chain crashes, you're SOL if you're not a developer. Yeah, we sometimes underestimate just how much minutiae knowledge we have that allows us to fix random problems in our tools without even thinking for a second about it.

So maybe Excel is unfit for purpose, but it's still the most fit for purpose tool available.

Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#47

Post by wtbob »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #45
ethan_g wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java, for example. Yes, it's true Excel is used for a lot of big important things, but I'd agree with GP it's not very good at them. Moreover, I think most people who use Excel for big important things, would agree it's not good for it--they get stuck in that situation when a small spreadsheet grows big over the years. Lack of version control, limited modularity, and no ability to unit test make large spreadsheets er…

The primary reason Java (and other programming languages) aren't, and won't be used instead of Excel is that Excel is interactive . About the closest you can get to that with a programming language is Lisp, but it's still half-way there compared to a spreadsheet, when you can see the data all the time as it is placed and updated. The second big reason is that Excel just works , and all programming languages usually r…

> About the closest you can get to that with a programming language is Lisp, but it's still half-way there compared to a spreadsheet, when you can see the data all the time as it is placed and updated.

I think that Kenny Tilton's Cells was an attempt to get that sort of interactive update functionality in Lisp. I was never able to figure it out though.

Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#48

Post by pjmorris »

Should decison maker's spreadsheets in business, policy, and government be peer-reviewed in the same way as scientific papers?

Disclaimers: 1) Yes, scientific peer review needs improvement. 2) Yes, spreadsheets are not ideal for science... what makes business less important?

Re: An alarming number of scientific papers contain Excel errors

#50

Post by contravariant »

ethan_g wrote: post #38
Rapzid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excel is used HEAVILY at all levels of business for large, complex, and important things. I'm curious what this right tool is that they should be using instead.

Java, for example. Yes, it's true Excel is used for a lot of big important things, but I'd agree with GP it's not very good at them. Moreover, I think most people who use Excel for big important things, would agree it's not good for it--they get stuck in that situation when a small spreadsheet grows big over the years. Lack of version control, limited modularity, and no ability to unit test make large spreadsheets er…

Using Java probably won't help you with the numerical issues though, unless you happen to use a good statistical library.
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