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Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

theguardian.com

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Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#41

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

anupshinde wrote: post #24

Shouldn't we as humans bury the longer past and move on and look at the present-day scenario? I know many will say - "What about justice to our ancestors?". Justice is done to them when their children(descendants) do not suffer similar injustice and/or live a better life. How many parents want their kids to live in a war-waging world? I understand what she did was very hard work. But what's the point? People who rais…

Did you see or just ignore the part where she talked to people who actually had atrocities committed against them?

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#42

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

The sad truth is that empires require massive amounts of violence to maintain. There is no other way. Just look at Sumer, Assyria, Persia, Rome, China, Ottoman, France, Britain, and Germany. Also, make no mistake, the United States is also a defacto empire.

Unfortunately, the alternatives to empires is isolation and infighting between smaller powers. For an example of this, take a look at the middle east. The middle east is most peaceful when it is part of an empire - be it the Ottoman, the British, Mongol, or Arab empires. Another example, is Europe. Europe was pretty peaceful when it was partitioned between the Soviet empire and the US Empire (also known as NATO).

Also, empires can provide major benefits through economies of scale. Take a look at Europe before and after the fall of the Roman Empire. Looking back historically, the Roman Empire was probably a net positive for human development throughout the Mediterranean World. The various Chinese empires were also probably net positives for their citizens.

Thus, it is not proper to judge the British empire over violence (given that an empire requires violence). The judgement should be over whether the British empire was a net positive or a net negative overall for the people involved.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#43

Post by sangnoir »

Spooky23 wrote: post #6

I think a better example of the evilness of the British Empire is the Irish experience in the 19th century. You lose the "excuse" of racism and are left with religious sectarianism and sheer greed for the policy. The British put inhumane and genocidal policies in place, starving millions in a land of plenty.

> You lose the "excuse" of racism

No, you do not lose the excuse of racism - "Race" is a social construct, not a biological one. The Irish were seen as an inferior people at the time (even in the U.S.), so they did suffer racism.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#45

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #30
rusabd wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

British concentration camps predated Nazi's

British concentration camps weren't created for the purpose of mass extermination.

First you're obviously right.

It is difficult though to distinguish neglect from intent sometimes, with "The vast majority of Boers remaining in the local camps were women and children. Over 26,000 women and children were to perish in these concentration camps. [...] The inadequate shelter, poor diet, bad hygiene and overcrowding led to malnutrition and endemic contagious diseases [...]"

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#46

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #34
Spooky23 wrote: post #6

I think a better example of the evilness of the British Empire is the Irish experience in the 19th century. You lose the "excuse" of racism and are left with religious sectarianism and sheer greed for the policy. The British put inhumane and genocidal policies in place, starving millions in a land of plenty.

The initial British response was to buy £100,000 of corn meal from the US to import to Ireland to combat the famine. This doesn't seem like an action of a government intent on genocide. It seems more to me that British policy in Ireland during the famine is marked by an extreme ideological commitment to laissez faire economics (ie, letting land owners export food from Ireland in large quantities to make money, lettin…

You are right of course.

One might think though if the famine happened to Britain and not to the "inferior" Irish "race" [see other comments], wether the government would be "letting land owners export food from [Britain] in large quantities to make money".

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#47

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

golergka wrote: post #17
afandian wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes lots of nations commit atrocities and have done through time. If anything that's less of a reason to disbelieve that your taxes, and those of your predecessors, are being spent on atrocities.

I think that the parent comment author meant the usual anti-colonialism which attacks western colonialism as something unique and blames virtually any hardships of former colonies on it. I recently saw an article which argued that honor killings in Pakistan are to be blamed on colonialism — because, apparently, palistani men felt oppressed by colonial past and had to take it out on their wives, daughters and sisters.…

I guess people get upset about this sort of thing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_I...

Or this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820...

But sure, focus on some absurd strawman, and ignore the millions of deaths that the British were responsible for.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#48

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #42

The sad truth is that empires require massive amounts of violence to maintain. There is no other way. Just look at Sumer, Assyria, Persia, Rome, China, Ottoman, France, Britain, and Germany. Also, make no mistake, the United States is also a defacto empire. Unfortunately, the alternatives to empires is isolation and infighting between smaller powers. For an example of this, take a look at the middle east. The middle…

> The judgement should be over whether the British empire was a net positive or a net negative overall for the people involved.

That's easy, it was a net negative for the Indians.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#49

Post by Ressuder »

tgarma1234 wrote: post #20

Yes one of the great quirks of European history is that the British Empire is not held in the same esteem as the Nazi empire. The British Empire was bizarrely racist and killed tens of millions of people worldwide. Maybe even more than that if you include the promotion of slavery as a business on global scale. England is so lovable now though.

I find it curious how some people seem to not believe in moral relativism. Do they not recognise that by doing so they are saying that they themselves are "evil" and immoral?

If you look at the contemporaries of the British Empire they do not stand out as exceptional either good or bad morally. Meanwhile, if you compare the Nazis to their contemporaries they do however stand out (though not nearly as some people might think).

To me it seems rather cruel and unfair to label someone or something as "immoral" if they are acting within the limits of accepted and expected behaviour in their environment.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#50

Post by JetSetWilly »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #46
JetSetWilly wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The initial British response was to buy £100,000 of corn meal from the US to import to Ireland to combat the famine. This doesn't seem like an action of a government intent on genocide. It seems more to me that British policy in Ireland during the famine is marked by an extreme ideological commitment to laissez faire economics (ie, letting land owners export food from Ireland in large quantities to make money, lettin…

You are right of course. One might think though if the famine happened to Britain and not to the "inferior" Irish "race" [see other comments], wether the government would be "letting land owners export food from [Britain] in large quantities to make money".

I think you are right to some extent, the Irish were definitely "racialised" in 19th century britain and considered essentially subhuman.

There was a potato famine in the Highlands of Scotland as well as Ireland, so it did hit Britain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Potato_Famine

And we can see that "prompt and major charitable efforts by the rest of the United Kingdom ensured that there was relatively little starvation" - but that similar to in Ireland, "The terms on which charitable relief was given, however, led to destitution and malnutrition amongst its recipients".

I guess in the mainland UK the scale was far smaller, but it didn't stop an extremely laissez faire and heartless response from government authorities.

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