I recommend to read Raphael Patai's classic "The Arab mind" to try to understand. Don't drink the NYT koolaid.
Adam Curtis's Bitter Lake has some good stuff too.
How the Arab World Came Apart
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Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#42tl:dr 100 pages: 1) People are fucking poor and hungry (extreme wealth inequalities) 2) Salafi/Wahhabi (Saudi) funding of islamism 3) Antediluvian hatred between people (it goes, way, way, way farther back than Sykes-Picot)
It seems they are missing an important factor, namely 4) the personal, cultural and economical impairment due to the religion of Islam. Nobody has time to thrive when they have to pray five times a day, when almost every thought and action is dictated by an old book and when half of their human potential is hidden in cloth bags.
Because Christians would never pray a lot, slavishly follow an old book or oppress women?
Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#43The NYTimes itself is also a considerable part of the reason, considering Judith Miller, Friedman, Krauthammer and many others propagandized hard for invading Iraq.
The invasion of Iraq was a stupid idea, and the NYTimes should be ashamed for that.
But the real problems occurred in the disastrous power vacuum and complete lack of a plan that occurred after the war was won. That's what tore Iraq and the Middle East apart. I don't think the NYTimes has any responsibility for that.
Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
It seems they are missing an important factor, namely 4) the personal, cultural and economical impairment due to the religion of Islam. Nobody has time to thrive when they have to pray five times a day, when almost every thought and action is dictated by an old book and when half of their human potential is hidden in cloth bags.
Islam is unrelated to the emotional and intellectual deficits imposed upon victims of poverty and disenfranchisement -- not only that but I think there's a strong argument in that a task performed five times daily repeated ad infinitum doesn't cause cultural impairment, nor does the age of a given mandate. Furthermore, I think maximizing for "human potential" is a red herring -- the inevitable end-result is exercisin…
Sure, the praying alone would not create a huge amount of cognitive load, but it is just symptomatic of an overly binding religion. It must be terribly confusing as a Muslim to see other cultures vastly outperforming them even though these cultures don't follow the word of Allah, e.g. by not throwing people off of cliffs for having wild gay sex and not stoning women for adultery. These are literally the kinds of rules, fears and confusions that shape Islamic cultures.
Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#45Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#46I haven't read the article yet but from the introduction I sense a narrative that the current situation is due to the 'illegitimate' second war in Irak? So it's Amerika's fault as usual?
Like most of modern history: America's fault most recently, but Europe's fault originally.
So its Europes fault that Shi'a managed to established a Shi'a Caliphate for the first time, and start a power struggle that would rage in the middle east since that time?
I'm not excusing the action of US and all the others, but I just want to point out that they didn't start anything and that before the even existed their were already states in that area that were fighting each other over many of the same borders areas.
Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#47I haven't read the article yet but from the introduction I sense a narrative that the current situation is due to the 'illegitimate' second war in Irak? So it's Amerika's fault as usual?
Like most of modern history: America's fault most recently, but Europe's fault originally.
"Like most of modern history: America's fault most recently, but Europe's fault originally."
America and Europe are stabilizing and largely benevolent forces in the world, and they were even this when they were colonialist.
The Middle East is a mess because of the nature and history of the types of cultures there.
The most prosperous nations in the region are those that play reasonably in the context of international balance as defined by Western powers.
Namely Saudi, Qatar, UAE, and now Jordan, mostly Egypt etc..
Iraq would be mostly ok if Saddam did not invade Kuwait.
Syria would be mostly ok if they didn't side with the Soviets, and support Iranian terrorism via Hezbollah.
Iran would be mostly ok if they stopped declaring that 'American must be destroyed' and overtly exporting their Islamic Theocratic Revolution outside their borders.
The 'internal issues' of Saudi such as human rights etc. - is making slow but steady progress as evidenced by their evolution over the last 50 years. Patience would get us there.
Without America or Europe, Middle Eastern powers would have wiped each other out so long as they had access to weapons, or I should say rather, there would be no stability.
Without USA+Europe, I believe the Arab world would look like Libya does now internally.
This is not to fail to recognize that the US+Europe have made tons of mistakes.
Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#48Ha ha ha ... ha ... The 'Arab World' was never together. Ever. All of the 'Anti-American Imperialism' kids here should remember that the bulk of the 'Arab World' is 'Arab By The Sword'. Arabic is spoken across North Africa, in particular because of Arab Colonialism of the 9th-12th centuries. Not since then has the 'Arab World' been anything resembling 'together'. The Turks kept them (and there was not much of them) u…
> Once things stabilize in Syria, maybe things can start to settle down. OT, but do you see this happening soon? The only way it seems that Syria can stabilize is for the regime to retake control. That's beginning to look like the most likely outcome. Could there ever be a path back to pre-Spring peace? Anything is better than what they have now :(
290.000 deaths later and 1/3 of the population fleeing the country. Even if the US knows that the return of Assad's tyranny is the only quick path to peace, they (US) will not be willing to bear the blame of the damage created.
Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Like most of modern history: America's fault most recently, but Europe's fault originally.
When Europe dominated the Middle East (and Africa), it was a pretty safe place. Certainly there was hope. Now the entire region is going down the sink. Maybe the problem instead is that Europe _LEFT_ ?
The people there didn't want the Europeans and fought them. The only way to stay their would be to suppress the people more and more. That would also not lead to a flourish of the region.
Re: How the Arab World Came Apart
#50I recommend to read Raphael Patai's classic "The Arab mind" to try to understand. Don't drink the NYT koolaid.
Some sources claim the book is racist and not backed by solid research. Any opinions on this? (looking for a good book on the topic).
This one [0] is fun. Choice quote: "The best use for this volume, if any, is as a doorstop."
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/may/24/worlddispatch....