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As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

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Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#41
post #2

"Who will benefit from automation?" Easy answer the companies profits and the automation machine manufacturer and support companies. Additionally the "Made in good old USA" sticker or wherever you happen to be brings up images of a local using timeless traditional methods making the garment, apart from a very few very expensive items that image is obviously a joke but it certainly works for sales and marketing to man…

High prices on necessities (food/housing/clothing) are like a regressive tax on the poor. Cheaper clothing will primarily benefit poor people who buy clothes.

Only if those poor can actually afford those cheaper clothes.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#42
post #36
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a moral dichotomy that's been around for ages and I have yet to see a satisfactory answer on: are sweatshops evil because the workers are grossly underpaid and work in terrible conditions, or are they good because they're better than nothing and people will apparently starve to death otherwise? it is a false dichotomy for many reasons. One of them - the most basic one - is that we have high productivity enou…

It's not a false dichotomy because it is something that exists today. The workers can either work for next to nothing in terrible conditions, or they can starve. Better situations exist and are possible, but they do not prove the nonexistence of the former.

I think GP had it right that this is a false dichotomy, that being "a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

False dichotomy doesn't mean that one of the options doesn't exist, it means there is an additional option not being considered -- that is, industry and government coordinating to create safe working environments and pay livable wages.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#43
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is creepy is when you are so uncomfortable with your sexuality that you think people watching on the street is objectification.

Watching on the street may or may not be (or involve) objectification. Publicly expressing gratitude to a clothing manufacturer for the pleasure you receive watching on the street, OTOH, is clearly objectification.

What's lamentable is that objectification is seen universally negative, when it isn't always necessarily. Is there real harm in appreciating the beauty of the people around you (if that's indeed all you are doing)? The term has become so loaded that it's hard to discuss without caveats and justifications, because a good many will argue based on the assumption that objectification is bad, rather than any actual harm.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#44
post #3

This is a moral dichotomy that's been around for ages and I have yet to see a satisfactory answer on: are sweatshops evil because the workers are grossly underpaid and work in terrible conditions, or are they good because they're better than nothing and people will apparently starve to death otherwise? Who should bear the responsibility of that decision? The workers? The governments of the workers? The governments of…

Factories and jobs in China (and other countries with factories) are good (in general, at least). It doesn't get much simpler than that. The only people that have issues with it are the consumers thousands of miles away who are completely detached from the issue and realities facing those workers, and who at the same time fuel demand by purchasing and funding those workers.

That says that jobs are good. It says nothing about the sweatshops.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#45
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching on the street may or may not be (or involve) objectification. Publicly expressing gratitude to a clothing manufacturer for the pleasure you receive watching on the street, OTOH, is clearly objectification.

What's lamentable is that objectification is seen universally negative, when it isn't always necessarily. Is there real harm in appreciating the beauty of the people around you (if that's indeed all you are doing)? The term has become so loaded that it's hard to discuss without caveats and justifications, because a good many will argue based on the assumption that objectification is bad, rather than any actual harm.

> Is there real harm in appreciating the beauty of the people around you (if that's indeed all you are doing)?

This is probably not harmful, but isn't really what people talk about when they say "objectification" (though I suppose you can describe it as "internalized objectification" if it involves your internal perspective of the targets being reduced primarily to what they provide you.)

Most of what people talk about is externalized objectification, which is outward actions which treat people as primarily to objects of your urges. And largely on the basis that this does cause harm to others, either directly (when specifically targeted) or less directly by a number of mechanisms (including normalizing devaluing attitudes toward the targeted class of persons) when less individually targeted but targeting a class.

> The term has become so loaded that it's hard to discuss without caveats and justifications, because a good many will argue based on the assumption that objectification is bad, rather than any actual harm.

You seem to believe that utilitarianism is the correct, objective, and universally accepted basis for moral discussions, such that discussing something as problematic for any reason other than harm it does is itself a problem.

(And you seem to describe it as harmful a priori, without pointing to a harm to anyone deriving from it, which seems problematic under its own standards.)

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#46
post #3

This is a moral dichotomy that's been around for ages and I have yet to see a satisfactory answer on: are sweatshops evil because the workers are grossly underpaid and work in terrible conditions, or are they good because they're better than nothing and people will apparently starve to death otherwise? Who should bear the responsibility of that decision? The workers? The governments of the workers? The governments of…

Anecdotes from 70's South Korea: Sweatshops can have atrocious working condition (poor lighting that hurts your eyes, poor chairs, ceiling so low that you can't even stand up, working 10+ hours a day). Many workers died young from various health problems they developed.

Regarding "starve to death" part, the government also suppressed crop prices so that these aforementioned workers could make their living with horribly low wages. Of course, this in turn meant that farming villages couldn't support as many people as they could if the price was determined by free market, ensuring a stream of people eager to work in factories.

So it's not exactly "sweatshops keep people from starving to death." Sometimes, those who enable sweatshops also make sure (whether intentionally or through apathy) that people would otherwise live one step from starvation.

On the other hand, decades of misery transformed South Korea into one of the world's leading industrial nations, so... I guess it's complicated.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#47
post #27
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ironically the capitalists always get blamed by the left for this unholy union between the state and upper class. There's a reason many pro-market people want smaller gov and it's not just personal selfish gain to save a few dollars in taxes but to prevent the predictable selfish incentives of the power players from exploiting the absolute power of the state for the benefit of a limited few. No wonder there is a…

How does smaller government help with sweatshops or unemployment or income inequality?

Regulatory capture allows large companies (espeically multinationals) to exclude competition.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#48
post #3

This is a moral dichotomy that's been around for ages and I have yet to see a satisfactory answer on: are sweatshops evil because the workers are grossly underpaid and work in terrible conditions, or are they good because they're better than nothing and people will apparently starve to death otherwise? Who should bear the responsibility of that decision? The workers? The governments of the workers? The governments of…

Factories and jobs in China (and other countries with factories) are good (in general, at least). It doesn't get much simpler than that. The only people that have issues with it are the consumers thousands of miles away who are completely detached from the issue and realities facing those workers, and who at the same time fuel demand by purchasing and funding those workers.

> The only people that have issues with it are the consumers thousands of miles away who are completely detached from the issue and realities facing those workers, and who at the same time fuel demand by purchasing and funding those workers.

Ok, that is just not true. Tell that to the garment workers here that were shot last year by government police while protesting low wages and poor working conditions.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#50
post #2

"Who will benefit from automation?" Easy answer the companies profits and the automation machine manufacturer and support companies. Additionally the "Made in good old USA" sticker or wherever you happen to be brings up images of a local using timeless traditional methods making the garment, apart from a very few very expensive items that image is obviously a joke but it certainly works for sales and marketing to man…

Let's get rid of the factories for cars, silicon, and electronics while we are at it. Efficiency is not conducive to jobs and prosperity. Workers must unite to protect livelihoods! (end sarcasm).

That's a frankly pointless comment. Did you miss the point of the parent? I don't think so, I think you deliberately attacked an issue that wasn't even the parent's point.

This concern is a valid one: keeping the current paradigm, automation will lead to unemployment on a massive scale which will wreak havoc everywhere especially in underdeveloped countries with little to no social safety net or worker and citizen protection. Keeping the current paradigm, the capitalists will reap even more obscene profits by absorbing the difference between the current salaries and the much lower automation costs, while potentially tens to hundreds of millions of people (in the short term only) will be out of jobs and left with no means of survival. This is very concerning to me, and attacking a straw man with a ridiculous "oh let's close the factories then shall we" is childish.

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