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After the coup, Turkey turns against America

economist.com

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Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#41

Post by kristiandupont »

olympus wrote: post #7

For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt and had no idea that it was about to happen. Honestly, the majority of Americans couldn't find Turkey on a map even if you centered the map on Turkey. However, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few CIA types provided assistance like they've been known (or suspected) to do in South America and other parts of the world. The US government clearly be…

>America had nothing to do with the coup attempt

>a classified document will be leaked that some portion of the US government was involved

..so which is it?

Also, how is it relevant whether or not the general American can find Turkey on a map? It's not like diplomacy and foreign intervention is done by the general population.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#42

Post by olympus »

breitling wrote: post #27
olympus wrote: post #7

For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt and had no idea that it was about to happen. Honestly, the majority of Americans couldn't find Turkey on a map even if you centered the map on Turkey. However, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few CIA types provided assistance like they've been known (or suspected) to do in South America and other parts of the world. The US government clearly be…

>For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt We can't know that for sure. I wouldn't underestimate our intelligence. Even if they didn't participate, it's likely they were informed. It is rumored that even the Saudis knew of the coup

What I meant was, out of a country of 300 million people, basically 0% had anything to do with it. Pretty much every company that has any business or trade that goes through Turkey had nothing to do with it. The number of people that want to be friendly vastly outnumber the others.

If there was American involvement, I'd bet that the people that knew about it only number in the dozens. It seems a shame that the actions of a few could affect so many lives this way.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#43

Post by TeMPOraL »

fit2rule wrote: post #17
steve19 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There publicly holding hands, and then there is accusing the US of plotting a coup. Between these two extremes is a vast middle ground they could occupy. If anything the government are fanning the flames, not the other way around. Shoot down a Russian plane and then months later accuse the USA of a plot while arresting thousands of judges ... I worry that this is all the start of something really, really terrible.

We've been in the middle of something really, really terrible, for rather a few decades, and are not really coherently dealing with it - in the 'royal we', as I personally can state my bit of it - very well. There is a big rush to try to get the world to peacefully co-exist, and technology is doing that. Seriously. At the head of all of the chaos of military action, is a technological breakthrough that cannot be weap…

> Quick, invent something socially amazing, that cannot be weaponized

I'm not sure something like this exists even in theory. Except maybe a benevolent, friendly, superhuman AI that doesn't listen to us. Other than that it seems that absolutely everything can be weaponized. It seems to be a fundamental property of technology as a force multiplier. We call "technology" the things that we create that help people exert their will on the physical world - and violence is, in general, exerting your will against another person.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#44

Post by shabaan »

mtgx wrote: post #13

The question is, will America turn against Turkey, too, or are the threats to exclude them out of NATO just empty ones? It will also be interesting to see if the EU will condemn this "democratic regime" they were so quick to defend after the coup.

This is not an option for America. They stand at a disadvantage position due to their behaviour.

THe inclirk aribase has 60 nuclear missiles which is cruicial for NATO to maintain its influence (a.k.a. hegemony) in the region.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#45

Post by ghostDancer »

grp wrote: post #19
tomp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a strange statement. From my perspective, America hasn't been either (if anything, the opposite)!

So I'm not the only to hallucinate? A few years ago, the goal was to make fall Bachar by any way, no? It's so sad that a Nobel Peace Prize has the worst foreign policy ever.

The Nobel Peace prizes have a long story of that, beginning with Kissinger. And the EU and USA have been always supporters of any dictator that could help them till they think it's more interesting to throw away and usually it ends with everything in the area being worse for the people that live there.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#46

Post by vintermann »

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum.

A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is a joke - then the people the military disapprove of will have been purged, their parties outlawed and the public sufficiently intimidated from supporting them for a while.

Which is not to say Erdogan is any friend of democracy, obviously. I don't think his recent reliance on free media during the coup will provoke any change of heart in him. It's just that Turkey's democracy was always a bit of a sham.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#47

Post by ryaniscool »

bovermyer wrote: post #29

Turkey is strategically valuable enough that I doubt much is going to change on a macro scale. Both sides will be cranky at each other for awhile, deals will be made, and everything will more or less go back to "normal." It's like how no one is willing to take care of the North Korea problem because leaving it alone is less of a headache than the alternative.

I don't agree.

When Turkey (unapologetically) shot down the Russian jet it put a serious strain on relations with the USA because they are a NATO member. It's like when the biggest kid on the playground has your back but you go around getting yourself in trouble constantly.

I think this is the latest in a successive displays of megolomania by Erdogan. The public perception of Turkey has shifted.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#48

Post by caf »

karpodiem wrote: post #24
pluma wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The president of the European Parliament followed up his "we support the democratically elected government" tweet with another tweet condemning that same government's actions following the failed coup, so that already happened. I'm also not sure how realistic losing Turkey as a NATO member is. They are in a strategic position that makes it worth to put up with most of their nonsense.

They are well on their well to caliphate that will be a hotbed for anti-western sentiment/anti-secular sentiment, so I fail to see how they are a strategic partner.

As long as they control the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus Strait their strategic position remains very valuable.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#49

Post by guard-of-terra »

emilsedgh wrote: post #33
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

> People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path.

A doubt all of them are. Just as with Brexit, popular opinion might be divided.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#50

Post by olympus »

tim333 wrote: post #23
olympus wrote: post #7

For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt and had no idea that it was about to happen. Honestly, the majority of Americans couldn't find Turkey on a map even if you centered the map on Turkey. However, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few CIA types provided assistance like they've been known (or suspected) to do in South America and other parts of the world. The US government clearly be…

The coup attempt seemed shockingly incompetent for anything staged by the CIA. Also what would be the motivation?

The motivation would be to remove Erdogan who is moving towards a "less democratic Turkey" and replacing him with a president that is more friendly to the US. Influencing the following election would probably happen as well.

A new president could help isolate Russia, provide more advantageous basing agreements for the military, and in general do what the US government wants.

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