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RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

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Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#41

Post by cageface »

bdcravens wrote: post #19
willvarfar wrote: post #4

Metacomment: a few years ago anything by RMS would have been jumped on within minutes of posting with lots of comments against him and his principles. Is he now being looked at in a different light by the wider software development community?

Years ago HN had a higher percentage of Slashdot refugees or whatever you want to call them, where what I'd call hard-nosed OSS was part of the dialog and the arguments were fresh. These days, there's many who see him less as a controversial figure within "their" community, and more of a crazy old guy with extremist views.

The more time goes by the less crazy he seems. His goals may not be realistic but his predictions about the dangers of dependence on commercial software have been vindicated in many instances. And things might get much worse still if the trend towards authoritarian leadership in Western countries continues.

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#42

Post by anc84 »

emp_zealoth wrote: post #38
danso wrote: post #10

> There are organizations that proclaim support for free software or the GNU Project, and teach classes in use of nonfree software. It's possible that they do some other things that really support free software, but those classes certainly don't. On the contrary, they work directly against the free software movement by promoting the use of the nonfree software. That increases the magnitude of the practical problem it…

I've tried to use Octave, I really did. Passed few classes with projects made in Octave. Then I nearly failed some classes because of simple, reproductible bugs no one gave a flying fuck about. None of PCs I've installed the thing on could produce a fully working figure with subplots. For example in 5 subplots number 3 would not render at all. Or the plot would not export to png if you had too many data points. Octav…

Could you link me to the bug tickets? I would like to take a look.

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#43

Post by adrianratnapala »

kiba wrote: post #35
cpkpad wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a little bit different. The only reason proprietary software exists is the copyright clause in the Constitution, which grants the government a right to issue limited-time monopolies to creators of original works. Revoking a government-granted monopoly is very libertarian. Revoking mutual consent is the opposite.

This is only an American perspective.

This is one of the cases where the American perspective just gives us a convenient language for discussing something more universal. By an accident of history, the US constitution cements inside a legal document the result of debates and lobbying that was going on all over the western world at the time.

Others at the time were also discussing the propriety of IP, and eventually agreed in favour of a limited form of it. Over time, it got strengthened further.

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#44

Post by wiz21 »

yuhong wrote: post #27
dcgudeman wrote: post #9

I really appreciate what RMS has done as far as start a movement that I think has contributed greatly to the human existence but when he says things like "The basic point of the free software movement is that nonfree software is unjust and should not exist." I can't but seriously question his judgment. It's one thing to personally want to use free software, it's another to claim that nonfree software "should not exis…

I wonder what will likely happen when RMS dies.

This.

That's a question I often ask. From what I know, RMS got some money in the bank that allows him to live the way he chooses. That is : spare some of its time advocating and building the free software movement. He's also very charismatic (well, in its very own way, I must admit).

He basically incarnates one thing : there's no compromise. He proves his position by shutting him off the proprietary world. And that's super tough to do. If he ever used non free software, his uncompromising position would be weakened.

So, FSF needs to be able to replace that sort of, non compromising, super talented and really smart person.

Has anybody ever seen someone close to that ? Then only one I see is Eben Moglen (although its technical talent is not in IT)

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#45

Post by JohnStrange »

cpkpad wrote: post #25
rmc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been RMS & FSF's position for decades. They view it as wrong that you have software which you do not have the four freedom for. Many legal and ethnical systems have limitations on what you can consent to. You're not allowed to consent to work for less than the minimum wage, for example

This is a little bit different. The only reason proprietary software exists is the copyright clause in the Constitution, which grants the government a right to issue limited-time monopolies to creators of original works. Revoking a government-granted monopoly is very libertarian. Revoking mutual consent is the opposite.

Proprietary software would also exist without any copyright, people would just guard their trade secrets, obfuscate code and put it server-side more than they already do now. The free software movement uses copyright to protect the freedoms, it is not a "libertarian" movement and never claimed to be. It wants to ensure that programmers and users of software have the four freedoms that RMS has laid out in many talks.

Perhaps a BSD style license is what you personally prefer. RMS has argued against such licenses for decades. Even if you disagree with him, please don't blame him for being inconsistent or defending a view that is not thought through.

Also, if you do not like the GPL, then you should perhaps be consistent and not use GPL software at all.

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#46

Post by adrianratnapala »

kardos wrote: post #32
Rexxar wrote: post #16

In the RMS world you are not good if you support some free software. You have to support them exclusively From the link: The basic point of the free software movement is that nonfree software is unjust and should not exist. Personally, I completely disagree with this.

Think of it like free speech and see if you still disagree.

Well yes. I support free speech, and also support the ability of people to promise to keep secrets.

If you don't think that is a fair analogy, then maybe you can start by explaining how the heck the free-speech to free software analogy works in the first place.

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#47

Post by wiz21 »

Rexxar wrote: post #16

In the RMS world you are not good if you support some free software. You have to support them exclusively From the link: The basic point of the free software movement is that nonfree software is unjust and should not exist. Personally, I completely disagree with this.

Care to explain why you disagree ? Be warned, I'm on the opposite side of yours : proprietary software is a byproduct of competition on material grounds :-)

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#48

Post by minder123 »

rmc wrote: post #18
dcgudeman wrote: post #9

I really appreciate what RMS has done as far as start a movement that I think has contributed greatly to the human existence but when he says things like "The basic point of the free software movement is that nonfree software is unjust and should not exist." I can't but seriously question his judgment. It's one thing to personally want to use free software, it's another to claim that nonfree software "should not exis…

That's been RMS & FSF's position for decades. They view it as wrong that you have software which you do not have the four freedom for. Many legal and ethnical systems have limitations on what you can consent to. You're not allowed to consent to work for less than the minimum wage, for example

However, if they were really radical they would license the whole GNU stack under the AGPL, because one cannot use SAAS software without the server side portion.

I find the FSF stance a bit inconsistent here.

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#49

Post by teekert »

emp_zealoth wrote: post #38
danso wrote: post #10

> There are organizations that proclaim support for free software or the GNU Project, and teach classes in use of nonfree software. It's possible that they do some other things that really support free software, but those classes certainly don't. On the contrary, they work directly against the free software movement by promoting the use of the nonfree software. That increases the magnitude of the practical problem it…

I've tried to use Octave, I really did. Passed few classes with projects made in Octave. Then I nearly failed some classes because of simple, reproductible bugs no one gave a flying fuck about. None of PCs I've installed the thing on could produce a fully working figure with subplots. For example in 5 subplots number 3 would not render at all. Or the plot would not export to png if you had too many data points. Octav…

Why not Python?

Re: RMS: Beware of Contradictory “Support”

#50

Post by Sylos »

willvarfar wrote: post #4

Metacomment: a few years ago anything by RMS would have been jumped on within minutes of posting with lots of comments against him and his principles. Is he now being looked at in a different light by the wider software development community?

Snowden's NSA revelations, Microsoft strongarming Windows 10 onto users, the increasing unavoidability of anything Google, Facebook continuing to be Facebook, copyright-laws being abused for all kinds of bullshit etc.

These all have validated what RMS has been saying for years, and you actually have to be quite ignorant at this point to just dismiss his viewpoint.

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