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The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

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Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#41

Post by hackits »

ap22213 wrote: post #37
hackits wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to play the devil's advocate here in regards to 'juniors' disregarding the wisdom and experience of 'seniors'. Maybe the advice, experience you're giving is not backed up with any evidence? They may be taking a analytical and evidence based approach and simply choosing between you're advice or a celebrity tweeter as both lacking any evidence and thus being both equal. Possibly the silver bullet gives them a upp…

Honestly, it's difficult to back things with evidence in this field. Ever try to get someone to read a paper on software engineering methods? Before one can get them to understand the evidence or even look at the data, they've already whipped together another couple thousand lines of code to demonstrate the opposite. Look, I'm definitely not a top %1 (or even %10) architect. But, I have had enough successes under my…

`Ever try to get someone to read a paper on software engineering methods?`

Yup, they never read it, let alone care.

`Look, I'm definitely not a top %1 (or even %10) architect`

I would say just simply knowing puts you in the top 10%. I don't wanted to come off as a jackass. Mostly because I've been through the same thing.

I make my bread and butter maintain large government software. Some of it good, some of it bad.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#42

Post by Domenic_S »

jasode wrote: post #33
jbandela1 wrote: post #7

I liked a lot of the article until I got to >Our hiring “secret sauce” largely stems from the fact that it seems to take significantly less time for someone with leadership and community skills to develop technical skills than the other way around. I’m seeing a large number of people who graduated from code bootcamps 3 and even 2 years ago now handily and gracefully filling the role of senior developer. This statemen…

>This statement makes me concerned that they have greatly devalued technical skills. [...] When technical ability is devalued so much in a company, I'm not going to justify their thinking but I'll attempt to explain where it probably comes from. The context for their perspective is crucial. Notice that their assertion for "less time to develop technical skills" is followed by a sentence praising graduates of "code bo…

I like this. I'd elaborate on your groups this way:

Group 1's job is to save the company money, or make existing systems easier to use/more efficient. They help increase sales by implementing metrics/ab testing/etc. A top member of group 1 will be leveraging technology to automate costs & complexity away. If the company nets more money because a Group 1 person is employed, they're doing their job.

Group 2's job is to invent core technology, often from scratch. They are well-versed in theory and application, and their deliverables take lots of time. If the company gains a patent because of a Group 2 person, they're doing their job.

Group 1 is business (and sometime public) facing, so soft skills are much more important. Group 2 IS usually the business, so tech skills are #1. The two groups have the same components in their pie charts, just in different proportions.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#43

Post by nemo »

ovatsug25 wrote: post #31
ap22213 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, on the other hand, companies are throwing away countless dollars on bad software. The problem is that it's relatively easy to write code to make something look somewhat functional, but it's a different level to complete it. The mistakes of the quick approaches take time to show, and then it becomes too late. It takes way more time and money to fix the issues, later. This has been a debate that's been going on fo…

Health care in the US blows through cash and often gets poorer results. Regulation does not a great industry make.

Health care in countries that have the best results are also heavily regulated. Regulations can be very beneficial, but only if they're well developed and well protected from regulatory capture.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#44

Post by ilaksh »

Its really mainly a rationalization for paying some people more than others. Or just a way of rating some developers as being more valuable.

If it were popular to use Programmer I, Programmer II, and Programmer III, then they would call it that.

By the way, going to a lot of conferences or having a lot of Twitter followers does not make you more 'senior' than me. It might make it easier for you to negotiate a 'senior' title and salary though, just by virtue of your being good at self-promotion.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#45

Post by hackits »

nemo wrote: post #43
ovatsug25 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care in the US blows through cash and often gets poorer results. Regulation does not a great industry make.

Health care in countries that have the best results are also heavily regulated. Regulations can be very beneficial, but only if they're well developed and well protected from regulatory capture.

Citation?

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#46

Post by zerohp »

jasode wrote: post #33
jbandela1 wrote: post #7

I liked a lot of the article until I got to >Our hiring “secret sauce” largely stems from the fact that it seems to take significantly less time for someone with leadership and community skills to develop technical skills than the other way around. I’m seeing a large number of people who graduated from code bootcamps 3 and even 2 years ago now handily and gracefully filling the role of senior developer. This statemen…

>This statement makes me concerned that they have greatly devalued technical skills. [...] When technical ability is devalued so much in a company, I'm not going to justify their thinking but I'll attempt to explain where it probably comes from. The context for their perspective is crucial. Notice that their assertion for "less time to develop technical skills" is followed by a sentence praising graduates of "code bo…

That division of programmers is a very good model. I spent many years as a self-taught programmer of group (1) but I really wanted to do the work of group (2). I found the skill gap to be impossible to bridge on my own and went to college to do so. CS departments tend to focus on group (2) knowledge and only have a few electives for group (1). I've made several friends in their late 20's and early 30's who also went back to school to get out of group (1).

This model also works well for understanding many comments here on HN.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#47

Post by im_down_w_otp »

nzoschke wrote: post #24
jbandela1 wrote: post #7

I liked a lot of the article until I got to >Our hiring “secret sauce” largely stems from the fact that it seems to take significantly less time for someone with leadership and community skills to develop technical skills than the other way around. I’m seeing a large number of people who graduated from code bootcamps 3 and even 2 years ago now handily and gracefully filling the role of senior developer. This statemen…

Because in software we build platforms that let the new developers stand on the shoulders of giants. With Rails you can learn and build a web app in weeks. With AWS you can learn cloud architecture in months. Spend two years focusing on the right tech, get sufficient depth, and you are an expert. There are also infinite resources to help with this from books to blog posts to a culture of mentorsship in the work place…

There's a vast, vast divide between people who can use Rails and people who can design and build Rails, and an even bigger divide between the people who can use AWS and people who can design and build AWS.

The company in the OP isn't in the business of systems engineering, they're in the business of software integration. I suspect if they were in the business of engineering they'd have a much different view of what it takes to be "senior". Because they'd be able to measure it in terms of lawsuits, audits, and fines rather than in slipped deadlines for web apps.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#48

Post by sjclemmy »

I think this is a great analysis. We like to think that jobs are clearly defined, but in reality they aren't, and they differ from company to company.

I have spent many a year being as a mid-level exec in medium size companies. Wherever I've been, I have demonstrated ownership and leadership (I'm not bragging, that's just how I work). However, I have alway felt a 'lack' of technical expertise, probably because I fit so well into the leadership roles I never spend that long on 'deep' technical work. Recently, I have sought to remedy this. I have traded my mid-level 'get stuff done' to become a developer, to scratch an itch that has been there since I programmed BASIC on my ZX Spectrum. I'm no spring chicken and I have spent the past 5 years getting up to speed on modern web and mobile development techniques and have pushed myself as a developer to anyone who will listen. In my latest role I've already been earmarked for a lead developer role - and I think this validates what the article is saying and also what a few comments on here are saying; I have demonstrated that I am technically competent with 3-4 years solid experience (which for 90% of jobs out there is probably enough), but my approach to working; owning problems and solutions, leading and mentoring others show that I can be relied upon to deliver product.

Just to counter the self-congratulatory tone of the above (I'm English, it makes me uncomfortable), I'm acutely aware of my shortcomings both technically and personally; I should write more tests, I should plan more before writing code, I sometimes don't speak up because I don't want to look stupid etc. But I think everyone has shortcomings that they learn to accommodate or change, it's all part of life.

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#49

Post by softawre »

tempodox wrote: post #30
minipci1321 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same reaction -- all good until that same paragraph. This kind of broke it all -- do these people understand what they are writing about? I recall my own feeling of getting into another universe after I finally started to systematically look into the assembly code generated by the compiler, and it took me 6 years to develop the need for this. It has been at least 5 years that I have removed 'Senior' from my…

Also, > Without a clear definition of “senior developer", we have no clear path for our own employees to get there. This seems like an anti-pattern of circular logic to me: Why would you want to “get there” when it's unclear what “being there” even means?

Are you kidding? Titles mean something. And then there's the pay raise...

Re: The Conjoined Triangles of Senior-Level Development

#50

Post by regularfry »

hackits wrote: post #34
nzoschke wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in software we build platforms that let the new developers stand on the shoulders of giants. With Rails you can learn and build a web app in weeks. With AWS you can learn cloud architecture in months. Spend two years focusing on the right tech, get sufficient depth, and you are an expert. There are also infinite resources to help with this from books to blog posts to a culture of mentorsship in the work place…

Medicine you could kill a the patient. Law you could send a innocent man to jail.

Software dev you could do either, if you end up at the right subcontractor at the right time.
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