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Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

haaretz.com

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Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#41

Post by vonnik »

nanna wrote: post #5

Without disrespecting his memory, we should not forget that Wiesel lent serious support to the occupation and, what is effectively, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. Haaretz touches on this: "In April 2010, he took out advertisements in four major newspapers, criticizing the Obama administration for pressuring the Netanyahu government to halt construction in Jewish neighborhoods located across the Green Line in…

Primo Levi and Paul Celan are both excellent, excellent writers. Any one who wants to learn about the Holocaust should read Levi's "If This Is a Man" and "The Truce". And Paul Celan's poem "Todesfuge" is one of the most moving writings from a survivor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfuge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Is_a_Man

I don't know anything better. They will change your life.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#43

Post by dmoy »

YZF wrote: post #29
Zafira wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

Israel is a Jewish state. Some feel that it is held up to unreasonably high standards vs. the rest of the world. Would you call the US aggressive and hostile? Would you call Russia aggressive and hostile? How about China? UK? France? South Korea? North Korea? Iran? Iraq? Lebanon? Turkey? (The list could go on and on)... Are these countries in the same situation you describe, i.e. fighting for their survival? What exa…

In order: yes, yes, not externally, not anymore, not anymore, no, not really but they'd like you to think so, no, not anymore, lol what no, not anymore (but damn fess up about the Armenian genocide already).

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#44

Post by forgotuser »

golergka wrote: post #27
tanderson92 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. > Because this criticism is too often intertwined with attacks not on israeli policies, but on Israel's right to exist. And yes, saying that jews don't deserve a nation state is definetly anti-semitic. Can you explain this to me please? My room…

> Can you explain this to me please? In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. > displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose o…

It seems like there's two potential definitions of "Israel" here that you're confusing: 1. "A Jewish state" 2. "A Jewish state located in the area formerly known as Palestine"

While I agree with you that believing that #1 shouldn't exist is anti-Semitic, I don't see how #2 is necessarily anti-Semitic, especially if the person expressing that view is Palestinian. I believe the Kurds also deserve their own state, but I don't see how that means that, say, the United States is obligated to give them Texas to start one in order to not be anti-Kurdish.

In any case, I, personally, don't believe in any country's "right" to exist. I'm not against any particular country's existence, I just don't think the term "right" applies to it. So am I anti-Semitic for extending that general belief to Israel, too?

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#45

Post by ams6110 »

forgotuser wrote: post #44
golergka wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain this to me please? In theory, criticizing a country and country's right to exist are different things. In practice, usually people who are most vocal critics of Israel don't think it should exist in the first place. > displacing native peoples from their homeland to do so Which is an ugly half-truth. To put things in this way would require either ignorance of the region's history or some ugly dose o…

It seems like there's two potential definitions of "Israel" here that you're confusing: 1. "A Jewish state" 2. "A Jewish state located in the area formerly known as Palestine" While I agree with you that believing that #1 shouldn't exist is anti-Semitic, I don't see how #2 is necessarily anti-Semitic, especially if the person expressing that view is Palestinian. I believe the Kurds also deserve their own state, but I…

Countries exist based on their willingness and ability to use force to acquire and defend territory. That's the way it's always been.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#46

Post by golergka »

tanderson92 wrote: post #34
golergka wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You actually did not address how being against Israel's right to exist is equivalent to anti-Semitism, which was the intent of my question. I must've misunderstood it then. Well, isn't it obvious? If you don't deny other ethnicities their nationhood and state, but somehow think that jews don't deserve the same treatment, how can it be not anti-semitic?

And again, if nobody lived in Palestine (the geographical region) then you would have a point that there is an equivalence. Otherwise, you need to argue that there is a higher moral value to giving the horribly oppressed Jewish people a state than the immorality of taking away the land of indigenous peoples. But that is a matter of judgement (esp. given anti-Semitism in the UK/US, esp. the UK, at the time leading to…

I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you taking about? "Taking away land"? As in, buying worthless swamps and making them into fertile land? Or resisting genocidal wars? Or destroying homes of terrorist families that get cash rewards for the fact that their son and brother killed hews?

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#47

Post by dang »

golergka wrote: post #46
tanderson92 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And again, if nobody lived in Palestine (the geographical region) then you would have a point that there is an equivalence. Otherwise, you need to argue that there is a higher moral value to giving the horribly oppressed Jewish people a state than the immorality of taking away the land of indigenous peoples. But that is a matter of judgement (esp. given anti-Semitism in the UK/US, esp. the UK, at the time leading to…

I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you taking about? "Taking away land"? As in, buying worthless swamps and making them into fertile land? Or resisting genocidal wars? Or destroying homes of terrorist families that get cash rewards for the fact that their son and brother killed hews?

> I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you taking about?

You can't comment like this here, regardless of how strongly you feel about a subject. We've warned you about this repeatedly before. Please don't do it again.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#48

Post by brashrat »

Zafira wrote: post #13
nanna wrote: post #5

Without disrespecting his memory, we should not forget that Wiesel lent serious support to the occupation and, what is effectively, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem. Haaretz touches on this: "In April 2010, he took out advertisements in four major newspapers, criticizing the Obama administration for pressuring the Netanyahu government to halt construction in Jewish neighborhoods located across the Green Line in…

I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks. So often it feels like proponents of questionable Israeli policies seem to use the Holocaust, Israel's fight for survival through the endless wars from its creation through the 1970s to justify an aggressive and hostile stance. Why is this?

| I think what bothers me the most about all of this is how criticism of the national policy of the state of Israel is reworked by certain opponents as anti-Semitic attacks... Why is this?

Let's say extremes from both sides of any issue in general tend to over-exaggerate...

You seriously think that the worst part is unfair propaganda by Zionists that exists to such an extent that it overwhelms any countervailing anti-Semitic reworking of anti-Semitism into slanting of news against Israel? Given the huge size of Arab and Moslem populations around the world compared to Jewish populations, the survey results that show their complete acceptance of anti-Semitism, and given the long long and recent history of anti-Semitism all across Europe... given that, to what do you attribute this "worst part"? Are you alleging that the Jews control the media?

Also, while we are on the subject, what races are "some of you best friends"?

I'm not attempting to attack you personally or accuse you, just trying to shake your intellectual lapels a bit to reconsider your stance, for what I've noticed is that your question comes up in every single discussion of this issue, to the extent that it sounds like a mantra to me. Propaganda itself.

Peace.

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#49

Post by Zafira »

know-fear wrote: post #39
littletimmy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some allege that parts of Night are too implausible and historically inaccurate. But then again, I think he wrote it as a novel rather than a historical document.

I know parts are very historically accurate. My father and uncle were there and are mentioned in the book.

I think for a lot of people, it's simply impossible to believe that people could be that cruel. Most of us have not seen and blissfuly have not lived through the horrors of World War II. I feel like this element, more than anything else, drives a lot of the nonsense views that the Holocaust or the wanton slaughter of people the Japanese deemed inferior is a made-up number or that it "wasn't that bad" and so on.

I remember when the Holocaust was being discussed in school and having to read books like Night in school and I was actually fascinated by this; the depths of good and evil that people can do are simply unfathomable. A British journalist wrote about the aftermath of the Battle of Shanghai when he visited what was once a densely packed suburb, "I saw only 5 Chinese, who were old men, hiding in a French mission compound in tears."[1]

[1]https://books.google.com/books?id=zNN6M97vYMEC&pg=PA70&lpg=P...

Re: Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Holocaust Survivor, Dies at 87

#50

Post by brashrat »

dmoy wrote: post #43
YZF wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is a Jewish state. Some feel that it is held up to unreasonably high standards vs. the rest of the world. Would you call the US aggressive and hostile? Would you call Russia aggressive and hostile? How about China? UK? France? South Korea? North Korea? Iran? Iraq? Lebanon? Turkey? (The list could go on and on)... Are these countries in the same situation you describe, i.e. fighting for their survival? What exa…

In order: yes, yes, not externally, not anymore, not anymore, no, not really but they'd like you to think so, no, not anymore, lol what no, not anymore (but damn fess up about the Armenian genocide already).

| not any more but damn fess up about the Armenian genocide already

I read PP as talking about the Turks present day treatment of the Kurds, not their previously reprehensible treatment of the Armenians. Are you excusing the way Kurds are treated by Turkey? (and Iraq and Iran and Syria)

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