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I renounced my US citizenship

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Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#41

Post by serge2k »

skywhopper wrote: post #28

It sounds like she didn't pay US income tax, she just had to file a tax return, which seems reasonable. The idea that the US government doesn't track US citizens bank accounts if they live in the US is laughable. Of course they do. Banks have to report all kinds of details of large transactions and balances. We don't have to fill out forms because the government can go directly to the banks to get the information. Th…

> It sounds like she didn't pay US income tax, she just had to file a tax return, which seems reasonable.

It's really not. That part about banks not wanting to serve american's is true. (Almost) no other countries do this type of thing.

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#42

Post by dalke »

skywhopper wrote: post #28

It sounds like she didn't pay US income tax, she just had to file a tax return, which seems reasonable. The idea that the US government doesn't track US citizens bank accounts if they live in the US is laughable. Of course they do. Banks have to report all kinds of details of large transactions and balances. We don't have to fill out forms because the government can go directly to the banks to get the information. Th…

> "she just had to file a tax return"

... and FBAR, which is not a tax return, and figure out if a retirement savings in the local country is taxable or non-taxable under US law, and take the risk of a rather large fine for getting it wrong. One of the comments goes into details, at https://medium.com/@john_12842/tony-antonetti-de63e9971d02#.... .

I pay about $600/year for an accountant in the US to figure things out.

On a purely financial sense, if I were to plan to never return to the US, it's cost-effective to renounce citizenship. I don't like how my country encourages me to make a cost analysis for being an American.

How much more would you pay in taxes each year in order to stay an American?

> "We don't have to fill out forms because the government can go directly to the banks to get the information."

Sure. Ditto for the Dutch government to her Dutch bank.

But that's not the real issue. Imagine that you live in the US, married and with a joint account to an American citizen whose is also a citizen of Canada and the UK.

What do you think your bank would do if the Canadian and UK governments demanded that your US bank send them the details of your account? Change all their accounting systems to meet the reporting demands? Or kick you out as a client?

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#43

Post by dalke »

kilroy123 wrote: post #27

As someone living abroad, I agree there is a lot of bull shit now, involving banking. I only have bank accounts in the US because of the complicated laws. That's not a big deal. What REALLY pisses me off, is that banks in the US are declining service because you live abroad. For example, holding investment accounts back in the US. If they find out I'm living abroad they will promptly close my accounts. I can't have a…

When you say "living abroad", do you mean you have a local job, get paid in the local currency, pay rent and bills in the local currency, etc.? Which you do all through a US bank? If so, what are you paying for international transaction fees? Surely much more than using a local debit card.

> I can still go home whenever I want. I can go to one of the many embassies around the world and get a new passport.

There's nothing special about the US in that regard. A citizen of Germany can do the same at any German embassy, even when not a resident in Germany and therefore not paying German income taxes, and also has the right to return to Germany.

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#44

Post by tim333 »

skywhopper wrote: post #29
letitleak wrote: post #12

Charging for renunciation is the most ridiculous part. You are paying for a process that: is expensive only since they want to investigate you as a presumed criminal or tax dodger (the movie Brazil comes to mind) is a result of their non-compliance with international norms is the result of the US declaring you have a status that was never requested As an expat I consider all US citizens to be indentured servants due…

I'm curious, what is stopping expats with foreign citizenship and an objection to the paperwork from just letting their US passports expire (or for the "accidental americans" not ever establishing one) and just not complying with all the annoying rules?

If they let their US passports expire they are still a US citizens with obligations to report tax etc.

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#45

Post by anarazel »

protomyth wrote: post #5
umeshunni wrote: post #2

Her biggest complaint is that she has to report her overseas bank accounts. If she had done some basic research, she would have realized that this isn't specific to people residing outside the US, but any US national even within the US has to report foreign bank accounts with balances >$10k. The rest of her post reads like whining about having to fill out forms.

I think you miss the part where the foreign bank does its own reporting, and how said banks are starting to refuse to have US Citizens as customers.

Worse than that, they're now starting to refuse customers that spend noticeable time (~60 days) in the US, even if they're not working there, and are not citizens. Having just moved to the US, two of my German banks pretty want to fire me as a customer.

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#46

Post by tim333 »

I know the US is set in their ways but adopting residence based taxation like everyone else wouldn't cause many problems. You can always have an anti avoidance clause for capital gains to stop billionaire shareholders skipping abroad to sell their shares.

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#47

Post by dalke »

bruceb wrote: post #36

1. Having American citizenship allows her to travel easily and often visa free to many countries. 2. Allows her to work in America with no visa issues. Access to top companies in the world including most of the ones we see on HN. 3. Allows her potential kids to have access same benefits and go to universities cheaper and again easily work in the US even if they didn't grow up there. Should renunciation chargers be ch…

Having Dutch citizenship gives her #1. The Dutch passport gives visa-free access to 156 countries. The US passport gives visa-free access to 155 countries. See https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php?ccode=nl .

Her Dutch citizenship still gives her access to the EU, including many companies mentioned even on HN, a US-centric site.

LOL! 1) Her child has US citizenship - that doesn't go away after she renounced, 2) As an EU citizen, her children would have rights that US citizens don't have, and 3) Standard tuition fees in the Netherlands are about $2500, which is less than a community college tuition in the US.

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#48

Post by dalke »

tn13 wrote: post #21

I could have become a US citizen long back but I have avoided taking that citizenship for the simple reason that I don't want to expose myself to American Tax Terrorism.

It couldn't have been that long back as three years ago you were newly in the US with an H4 spouse visa (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6364977 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5323455 ).

I assume you asked https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11972642 5 hours ago for a friend?

Also, even greencard/non-citizens are subject to ATT.

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#49

Post by rogerbinns »

1024core wrote: post #19
british_india wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really FATCA is one of the most excellent laws that has been passed. Prior to this, you had expats who had milked the US and then they wanted to waltz off with their proceeds. Americans gain huge benefits from the taxes paid by prior generations. The entire US system is the envy of much of the world--and how did it get that way? Americans paying their taxes. Whether or not you have kids--you must pay property taxes t…

> If you were born in the US, then you benefitted. If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid. I don't know why Americans believe this fairy tale. It's simply not true. Case in point: Yemen, last year. American citizens were abandoned by State[1], only to be rescued by India[2]. What's the point of the taxes, again? [1] http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/na…

Also note that if the US does rescue you, then they also send you a bill for it. (It is capped at something like the price of a full fare economy plane ticket, which is still expensive.)

Re: I renounced my US citizenship

#50

Post by british_india »

rogerbinns wrote: post #49
1024core wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you were born in the US, then you benefitted. If you are a US citizen and you get in trouble somewhere on earth, the US government will come to your aid. I don't know why Americans believe this fairy tale. It's simply not true. Case in point: Yemen, last year. American citizens were abandoned by State[1], only to be rescued by India[2]. What's the point of the taxes, again? [1] http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/na…

Also note that if the US does rescue you, then they also send you a bill for it. (It is capped at something like the price of a full fare economy plane ticket, which is still expensive.)

So, the State Department is supposed to maintain a worldwide set of consulates--with no charge to you--just so they can swoop in at your time of need and give you services that you then pay for. Do you think all those State Department resources just come out of pixie dust when you need them? Duh, no. We pay things called taxes to keep that worldwide network of consulates existing and available if you need them.

No, like so many expats, you just want to skate under the radar--gleaning the advantages of that blue passport--while expecting the "little people who pay taxes" in the states to float you.

No, all the expat whiners here can go right ahead and whine. Please renounce your citizenship. Your beef is not with the US Government that maintains this country for you to return to if you so choose based on your citizenship--but with all the prior tax evaders who caused the damned FBAR and then FATCA to exist in the first place. I have not heard a single whining expat here point the finger at the true culprits--the tax evaders who were so egregious that they caused FATCA to be passed with a bi-partisan majority in 2010.

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