Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 157 posts

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#41

Post by jevinskie »

uxp wrote: post #38
newhouseb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple continues to open source their version of XNU, although there has been an increasing lag between the release of each OS version and the corresponding sources. The latest available sources are from 10.11.2, three minor versions behind. Apple has also shifted to pushing a lot of sensitive/proprietary code into kernel extensions (the new Apple File System being one example), for which they don't release source cod…

Filesystems, by and large, are supposed to be pushed into the kernel (via extension, or direct compilation). I'd hardly say that they've "shifted" into pushing code into their kernel, but that much of what differentiates Apple's XNU kernel vs FreeBSD's Kernel or Linux is what they choose the exclude.

I believe the grandparent post is referring to the fact that HFS+ is available in the open source release of xnu [1] while the question of whether Apple will open source APFS kext, especially given their recent trend of moving functionality from xnu into closed source kexts.

I think it would be smart for them to open source it, if not simply for the interoperability use cases.

[1]: http://opensource.apple.com//source/xnu/xnu-2050.18.24/bsd/h...

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#42

Post by alsetmusic »

hackuser wrote: post #33
headShrinker wrote: post #26

A move like this fits with a more general ideology Apple has been advocating for the last three years. Privacy, security, and ultruism. Tim Cook has put is mark on the company. One of the first things he did was apologize, (for maps) something unheard of in Apple's culture. I haven't drank the cool-aid and Apple has a lot of issues. I do see they however are making attempts at differentiating from the general corpora…

I don't know enough about their new ethical approach to say whether it's PR, whether it's just a few well-publicized decisions, or whether it's broad-based and substantial. I'm not saying either way; I just don't know. But it could make me a loyal customer much more than cool design and fashionable cache ever would.

A couple days after Tim Cook stepped into the CEO position, he reversed a Jobs policy and announced that the company would begin matching employee donations to charities. I considered this a fairly classy and subtle way to signal that he wasn't going to lie down on the job (it had been requested many times on company mailing lists).

Source: I was on those lists.

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#43

Post by godzillabrennus »

ericmsimons wrote: post #10

Could this be an invitation for researchers to find a backdoor the NSA required Apple to put in there? Or are they just utilizing the crowd to help secure against NSA attacks?

That would make sense. They have been on the offensive for protecting their customers.

Trouble is auditing TrueCrypt cost $25k and it took massive rumors of a backdoor to raise that. I'm not sold that auditing this will happen anytime soon.

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#44

Post by panic »

matthewaveryusa wrote: post #21
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #2

I suppose this is the only way to definitively stop any three-letter agencies from asking you to backdoor your kernel.

Also, all you need is one insider kernel developer to get all the source code anyways. I always find these kinds of initiatives silly -- A lot of companies think that an insider is a side-channel attack when really it's the main vector.

Also, all you need is one insider kernel developer to get all the source code anyways.

You mean this source code? http://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#45

Post by StillBored »

matthewaveryusa wrote: post #21
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #2

I suppose this is the only way to definitively stop any three-letter agencies from asking you to backdoor your kernel.

Also, all you need is one insider kernel developer to get all the source code anyways. I always find these kinds of initiatives silly -- A lot of companies think that an insider is a side-channel attack when really it's the main vector.

Yah, I've had this discussion numerous times. Especially with regard to hiring people from a competitor. Often you wonder how much information is traveling via unintentional side channels (not just employees that are also on the payroll of a 3 letter agency).

OTOH, there does seem to be a fair amount of competence where it matters though. In the couple companies I worked for the private keys used for signing things were very quietly kept hidden from the vast majority of the engineering teams/etc. AKA, it was possible to create an development/test builds all day long, but creating valid license keys/firmware updates/etc for the builds given to customers was limited to a formal process which contained the keys. The private keys were only available to a couple people tasked with maintaining the automation from which the builds/keys/etc came from. Those people rarely had a need to move/etc them either, and such activities were done in the open.

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#46

Post by Kristine1975 »

headShrinker wrote: post #26

A move like this fits with a more general ideology Apple has been advocating for the last three years. Privacy, security, and ultruism. Tim Cook has put is mark on the company. One of the first things he did was apologize, (for maps) something unheard of in Apple's culture. I haven't drank the cool-aid and Apple has a lot of issues. I do see they however are making attempts at differentiating from the general corpora…

>altruism

Then why does Apple avoid paying taxes?

Let's not kid ourselves: Apple is a company, and companies are only "altruistic" if they expect that it will help their bottom line.

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#47

Post by Kristine1975 »

nostromo wrote: post #37
hackuser wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know enough about their new ethical approach to say whether it's PR, whether it's just a few well-publicized decisions, or whether it's broad-based and substantial. I'm not saying either way; I just don't know. But it could make me a loyal customer much more than cool design and fashionable cache ever would.

When they took on the FBI I decided that it was more than just vacuous PR. A PR person would bristle at the idea of denying to unlock the phone of a terrorist. It took real cojones for Apple to stand up for privacy at such a time.

>A PR person would bristle at the idea of denying to unlock the phone of a terrorist.

Why exactly? If Apple wants to make privacy and security its unique selling point, it has to deny an FBI request to unlock one of their phones. Anything else would be a PR debacle.

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#48

Post by jevinskie »

jevinskie wrote: post #11
krastanov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think they are talking about source code, rather about some compiled code cache. I am not completely certain that the author of the article knows what they are talking about (but I am quite confused myself and I will appreciate an explanation). Also, I thought a lot of the Darwin MacOS kernel had already publicly available source code.

Some of the kernel is released months/years later as open source. You are correct about the releases being macOS only, iOS xnu has never been open sourced but it is, for the most part, identical. Apple has also been moving code out of the open source kernel releases and into private, closed source kexts. Kernel extensions like Sandbox have never been released.

I forgot to mention launchd. It was open source then was closed and split into launchd/libxpc. It has always been a critical security component of macOS/iOS. Many CVEs have been written about it even after it was closed via binary reversing and fuzzing. Having the source again would be nice.

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#49

Post by newhouseb »

jevinskie wrote: post #41
uxp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Filesystems, by and large, are supposed to be pushed into the kernel (via extension, or direct compilation). I'd hardly say that they've "shifted" into pushing code into their kernel, but that much of what differentiates Apple's XNU kernel vs FreeBSD's Kernel or Linux is what they choose the exclude.

I believe the grandparent post is referring to the fact that HFS+ is available in the open source release of xnu [1] while the question of whether Apple will open source APFS kext, especially given their recent trend of moving functionality from xnu into closed source kexts. I think it would be smart for them to open source it, if not simply for the interoperability use cases. [1]: http://opensource.apple.com//source…

Yep. So far, they've committed to publishing "the APFS volume format" [1]. It'll be interesting if they fold it back (into the kernel proper) as part of making APFS bootable.

[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/content/docum...

Re: Apple confirms iOS kernel code left unencrypted intentionally

#50

Post by jevinskie »

panic wrote: post #44
matthewaveryusa wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, all you need is one insider kernel developer to get all the source code anyways. I always find these kinds of initiatives silly -- A lot of companies think that an insider is a side-channel attack when really it's the main vector.

Also, all you need is one insider kernel developer to get all the source code anyways. You mean this source code? http://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/

That is, unfortunately, by no means "all the source code" of the kernel-level code that is running on your Mac, iPhone, iPad, iPod, Apple TV, or Apple Watch.
Post reply on HN