Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then we will have robots doing jail-time in cases like Enron.
"Your Honor, I swear the AI told me to do it!"
"I can prove it mathematically!"
Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
41–50 of 56 posts
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#42People are missing the point of robots. Robots have the potential to give us what we've always wanted but could never ethically achieve: slaves. We want capable beings to do our bidding. To serve us, to build for us, to obey us. If we follow some nonsensical robotic social justice, we can lose this. This type of stipulation is also an example of innovation-hindering regulation, and what a surprise, it's coming from t…
This has nothing to do with socialism per se, only with the balance of labor versus physical capital as input factors of production. All existing social-insurance systems were built under the assumption that production was an innately labor-intensive process, and thus that setting a payroll tax on labor would be sufficient to fund the insurance programs, provided unemployment was kept away from depression levels by other means.
Today those programs face a double-drainage problem: more people are using unemployment insurance, top-ups for low-wage workers, and old-age pensions at the same time, while less money is being contributed due to continuing depression-levels of unemployment and underemployment. Insofar as the EU expects roboticization to contribute to this double-drainage problem by shifting the labor-to-capital balance in factors of production further towards physical capital, they're trying to rebalance the insurance systems by taking more contribution from the capital side.
In short, they're trying to shift the tax burden to people who have money available to pay, rather than to people who increasingly don't.
It's a shitty kludge from a long-term public-policy perspective because it does nothing to solve the conflict over the economic pie between labor, financial capital, physical capital, and intellectual expertise, but as accountant-logic, it works out.
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is being 'sentient' (a vague term) a requirement for something to have rights?
Until it is sentient, it's just a hammer with pre-programmed response. After that, it can define itself.
So, sentient means 'having the ability to learn new things' ? Kinda like humans, who are born with certain instincts, but are then able to learn new things or 're-program' themselves.
Well, there is a filed called 'machine learning', which helps design robots who will be able to learn. If they are able to learn and exhibit intelligent behavior, then we have to treat them as something more than rocks or hammers.
That is what the document is referring to - not pre-programmed robots, but AIs (robots who are able to learn, perceive, change behavior etc.).
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#44The article does a bad job explaining that this is just a draft by one committee in the europarliament, and unlikely to get anything resembling majority support anywhere.
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#45It appears the main motivation here is to maintain the same level of taxation on a business that switches from human to robot workers for a significant part of the labour undertaken.
What's the reason to single out robots and not other means of production / capital though? There's no real distinction between a robot and a drilling machine, car, accounting software or anything that improves productivity.
here in texas, the county governments tax income producing property: http://www.appraisaldistrictguide.com/personal-property-tax....
its like, your business shouldn't be too dependent on the local government, just like it shouldn't be too dependent on 1 employee, or one copy of data. that's why some businesses negotiate with the government before expanding into a new area.
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Until it is sentient, it's just a hammer with pre-programmed response. After that, it can define itself.
So, sentient means 'having the ability to learn new things' ? Kinda like humans, who are born with certain instincts, but are then able to learn new things or 're-program' themselves. Well, there is a filed called 'machine learning', which helps design robots who will be able to learn. If they are able to learn and exhibit intelligent behavior, then we have to treat them as something more than rocks or hammers. That…
> it can define itself.
I think you might have missed the full implication of that part.
Certainly, a sentient being can learn new things, but that's a matter of rule-base and memory. No actual intelligence required, IMO. Sentience, to me, goes toward a concept of self. Of being aware that one exists and is responsible for one's own actions.
Personally, I fine with having really smart-but-not-sentient hammers. I'd rather not have to lard up machinery with some touchy-feely "it's alive" sentiment. We won't have to have lots of hand-waving over whether or not that hammer is a slave or not.
If we can have an army of dumb robots performing the work that slaves do now more efficiently and cheaply, then we can easily spot the slave owners and remove them.
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#47Fucking robots coming here and taking our jobs!
In all seriousness I think this is the opposite of what the EU should be doing. By stifling innovation like this their hurting their own economy with dumb laws that will only keep the glorious robot slave future from happening.
Let's also agree that robots are not people. I've seen this dumb stance typically writers or creative types have taken lately around AI and robotics where people think robots are people and take offence at robot slavery.
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#48It appears the main motivation here is to maintain the same level of taxation on a business that switches from human to robot workers for a significant part of the labour undertaken.
What's the reason to single out robots and not other means of production / capital though? There's no real distinction between a robot and a drilling machine, car, accounting software or anything that improves productivity.
You raise a good question. In most cases there's a person manning that drilling machine, driving that car, or typing into that piece of software.
This draft legislation anticipates a secular change in the labour market whereby autonomous robots displace the need for humans so significantly that the pool of taxable labour vanishes for good.
Meanwhile economic output increases but there's no taxation system in place for the government to take a slice. So shift the tax burden to the robots.
It's far from perfect but sure as hell somebody (or something) is getting taxed.
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
So, sentient means 'having the ability to learn new things' ? Kinda like humans, who are born with certain instincts, but are then able to learn new things or 're-program' themselves. Well, there is a filed called 'machine learning', which helps design robots who will be able to learn. If they are able to learn and exhibit intelligent behavior, then we have to treat them as something more than rocks or hammers. That…
> it can define itself. I think you might have missed the full implication of that part. Certainly, a sentient being can learn new things, but that's a matter of rule-base and memory. No actual intelligence required, IMO. Sentience, to me, goes toward a concept of self. Of being aware that one exists and is responsible for one's own actions. Personally, I fine with having really smart-but-not-sentient hammers. I'd ra…
>> Certainly, a sentient being can learn new things, but that's a matter of rule-base and memory. No actual intelligence required, IMO. Sentience, to me, goes toward a concept of self. Of being aware that one exists and is responsible for one's own actions.
I think sentience is somewhat more limited. Most animals are sentient, in that they can feel and perceive and learn from experiences. Few animals besides humans are sapient, in that they can reason about complex and abstract ideas separate from direct experience, have a sense of self, and other criteria.
Re: Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draft plan
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's the reason to single out robots and not other means of production / capital though? There's no real distinction between a robot and a drilling machine, car, accounting software or anything that improves productivity.
You raise a good question. In most cases there's a person manning that drilling machine, driving that car, or typing into that piece of software. This draft legislation anticipates a secular change in the labour market whereby autonomous robots displace the need for humans so significantly that the pool of taxable labour vanishes for good. Meanwhile economic output increases but there's no taxation system in place fo…
There is VAT. If the output really increases then VAT's output increases too. However, of nobody works who's going to pay that VAT? We'll see how it will play out.
This proposal reminds me of world of Time of EVE, an anime with truly electronic persons. It's all on YouTube.