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US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

bbc.com

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Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#41

Post by ethanbond »

grandalf wrote: post #24

In terms of the potential for economic damage, a full-fledged bioweapon attack is not all that much more effective than a low-sophistication attack (or several, staged at the same time). So while it is useful to understand the way subway systems may disperse particles, this kind of research does not reduce the risk of economic damage from low-sophistication attacks targeted at the subway system. It is difficult to ob…

Why are you framing the loss of life solely and exclusively within the bounds of economic damage?

Obviously there are cheaper ways to cause more expensive damage. That's not what terrorists care about and that's not what potential victims of terrorism care about.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#42

Post by ethanbond »

rconti wrote: post #35
jgmrequel wrote: post #19

I am curious to find out how many reports they got from riders who saw the researchers. I know that if I saw someone releasing gas like in the picture in the article, I'd quickly find someone to talk to about it. That said, hopefully they can validate models which will provide optimum locations for detectors, as well as action plans once a detection occurs, such as kill all cars near the detection and change venting…

Nothing to worry about, they're wearing orange vests and carrying clipboards.

There have also been a few PSAs that I've seen over the past few weeks. I'm sure not every subway rider saw these and was thus okay with what was going on, but a fair bit probably did. I learned about the tests all the way up in Albany, I assume there was a more robust announcement in the city itself (but maybe not).

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#43

Post by fapjacks »

rconti wrote: post #35
jgmrequel wrote: post #19

I am curious to find out how many reports they got from riders who saw the researchers. I know that if I saw someone releasing gas like in the picture in the article, I'd quickly find someone to talk to about it. That said, hopefully they can validate models which will provide optimum locations for detectors, as well as action plans once a detection occurs, such as kill all cars near the detection and change venting…

Nothing to worry about, they're wearing orange vests and carrying clipboards.

A guy in one of my old units used to carry a clipboard in the Army everywhere he went. He explained to us some years later that the clipboard was how he avoided being chosen for work details for years and years. Phenomenally clever idea.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#44

Post by jorblumesea »

grandalf wrote: post #24

In terms of the potential for economic damage, a full-fledged bioweapon attack is not all that much more effective than a low-sophistication attack (or several, staged at the same time). So while it is useful to understand the way subway systems may disperse particles, this kind of research does not reduce the risk of economic damage from low-sophistication attacks targeted at the subway system. It is difficult to ob…

Fear is a huge part of any terrorist endeavor and small invisible particles killing you while you commute is far scarier than someone with conventional arms. Further, NYC subways would be closed for weeks, the US's largest city and an economic powerhouse would grind to a halt. The economic damage is such an event would be huge.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#45

Post by chrisseaton »

jgmrequel wrote: post #19

I am curious to find out how many reports they got from riders who saw the researchers. I know that if I saw someone releasing gas like in the picture in the article, I'd quickly find someone to talk to about it. That said, hopefully they can validate models which will provide optimum locations for detectors, as well as action plans once a detection occurs, such as kill all cars near the detection and change venting…

I once called the police in London, because there was a group of men in masks using angle grinders on the door of a bank while the alarm was going off, and the operator said 'well if they're doing it in broad daylight I doubt they're up to no good'. Fine.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#46

Post by Declanomous »

fapjacks wrote: post #43
rconti wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing to worry about, they're wearing orange vests and carrying clipboards.

A guy in one of my old units used to carry a clipboard in the Army everywhere he went. He explained to us some years later that the clipboard was how he avoided being chosen for work details for years and years. Phenomenally clever idea.

Similar note, I found I could walk out of class anytime in high school and wander the halls as long as I looked sufficiently stressed. As long as you look like you have a purpose people will not bother you (unless you look like you have a purpose that you aren't fulfilling I suppose).

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#47

Post by Declanomous »

jagger27 wrote: post #38
scrollaway wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also easier to stop a train, get off a train, or prevent collateral damage in case of malice/accident. Survivors are also a lot more likely if there is an accident, mostly because of gravity.

Very true. Even in the worst train derailments you never hear that there were no survivors.

Assuming passenger trains of course. I think a freight hijacking is far more likely. The danger posed by a hijacked freight are evident from the huge numbers of lives lost from exploding petroleum trains over the past few decades.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#48

Post by iamdave »

chrisseaton wrote: post #45
jgmrequel wrote: post #19

I am curious to find out how many reports they got from riders who saw the researchers. I know that if I saw someone releasing gas like in the picture in the article, I'd quickly find someone to talk to about it. That said, hopefully they can validate models which will provide optimum locations for detectors, as well as action plans once a detection occurs, such as kill all cars near the detection and change venting…

I once called the police in London, because there was a group of men in masks using angle grinders on the door of a bank while the alarm was going off, and the operator said 'well if they're doing it in broad daylight I doubt they're up to no good'. Fine.

'well if they're doing it in broad daylight I doubt they're up to no good'

..........WHAT. I'm sorry, but no, seriously a police operator said this?

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#49

Post by jgmrequel »

ethanbond wrote: post #42
rconti wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing to worry about, they're wearing orange vests and carrying clipboards.

There have also been a few PSAs that I've seen over the past few weeks. I'm sure not every subway rider saw these and was thus okay with what was going on, but a fair bit probably did. I learned about the tests all the way up in Albany, I assume there was a more robust announcement in the city itself (but maybe not).

I'm a daily rider on the 4/5 and C lines, and I didn't see the ads for this. A semi-random sampling of my colleges where I work (upper east side) saw mixed knowledge about the tests.

Re: US government conducted airflow tests on NYC subway to understand bioterror risk

#50

Post by gcr »

jorblumesea wrote: post #44
grandalf wrote: post #24

In terms of the potential for economic damage, a full-fledged bioweapon attack is not all that much more effective than a low-sophistication attack (or several, staged at the same time). So while it is useful to understand the way subway systems may disperse particles, this kind of research does not reduce the risk of economic damage from low-sophistication attacks targeted at the subway system. It is difficult to ob…

Fear is a huge part of any terrorist endeavor and small invisible particles killing you while you commute is far scarier than someone with conventional arms. Further, NYC subways would be closed for weeks, the US's largest city and an economic powerhouse would grind to a halt. The economic damage is such an event would be huge.

Today, right now, there already are terrible biohazards on every subway car. Have you ever touched one of those poles? Truly frightening.

They say you're not a "real New Yorker" (whatever that means) until you've lost a finger to the subway pole bacteria...

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