Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum • Hacker News Board

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#41

Post by xcasex » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 2:03 AM UTC

rhblake wrote: post #37

pdkl95 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (after she, Greenwald and MacAskill had done the most important part) They are also targets. I made no claim about the relative importance of Appelbaum's involvement, which is completely off-topic. He gave the talk at 30c3, which makes him a figurehead and thus a target. > he's never been important from a tech/operations point of view So what? That doesn't make him any less of a target from agencies that are pissed…

So a number of high-profile, veteran, respected, typically anti-authoritarian members of the hacking community - including multiple Tor project members - have spoken out against Applebaum in the past week. That it's all being orchestrated by some three-letter agency is theoretically possible , sure, but I think that's extremely unlikely . Applying some Occam I just end up with a tragic case of an abusive asshole. (I…

Veterans who have spoken out about brashness, him being socially clumsy, him being an asshole.

There are as of yet unsubstantiated, uncorroborated & unverified stories.

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#42

Post by kbenson » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

rhblake wrote: post #37

pdkl95 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (after she, Greenwald and MacAskill had done the most important part) They are also targets. I made no claim about the relative importance of Appelbaum's involvement, which is completely off-topic. He gave the talk at 30c3, which makes him a figurehead and thus a target. > he's never been important from a tech/operations point of view So what? That doesn't make him any less of a target from agencies that are pissed…

So a number of high-profile, veteran, respected, typically anti-authoritarian members of the hacking community - including multiple Tor project members - have spoken out against Applebaum in the past week. That it's all being orchestrated by some three-letter agency is theoretically possible , sure, but I think that's extremely unlikely . Applying some Occam I just end up with a tragic case of an abusive asshole. (I…

> Which, at the time, I thought was a bit odd bringing up in casual conversation with someone he didn't know.

I'm not sure that being crass is necessarily an indicator that he's more likely to be a rapist. That's the problem with all this, there's a lot of substantiated stories about him being an asshole, an actual refutation by the party involved of one of the stories that was originally conveyed by a third party, and a bunch of unsubstantiated stories about him being as asshole and a rapist. I don't think the correct thing to do in this case is to assume his guilt. The right may not include assuming his innocence either, until more information is presented.

There's a lot of "you should believe the victim" stuff going around, but at this point are we sure there even is a victim (in the rape accusation)? Is it all third party accusations about anonymous victims, or do we actually have a victim that has come forward? I think that's an important distinction. I put a lot less trust in anonymous sources.

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#43

Post by rhblake » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 2:25 AM UTC

xcasex wrote: post #41

rhblake wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a number of high-profile, veteran, respected, typically anti-authoritarian members of the hacking community - including multiple Tor project members - have spoken out against Applebaum in the past week. That it's all being orchestrated by some three-letter agency is theoretically possible , sure, but I think that's extremely unlikely . Applying some Occam I just end up with a tragic case of an abusive asshole. (I…

Veterans who have spoken out about brashness, him being socially clumsy, him being an asshole. There are as of yet unsubstantiated, uncorroborated & unverified stories.

They have essentially described him as a sociopath. That's very different from merely being brash and clumsy...

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#44

Post by asuffield » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

rhblake wrote: post #18

syngrog66 wrote: post #10

When I read all the complainers stories my initial reaction was I noticed a fairly consistent style of "spinning" each account in a way to smear Applebaum. They each seemed designed to imply he did evil things, without truly saying it. Today we get this account, from one of Applebaum's supposed "victims" and, surprise surprise, her tale is pretty innocent and de-spun and totally oppositely aligned from the anti-Apple…

Re: NSA, state actors, billion dollar budgets... I think you're giving Appelbaum way too much credit here. While he's been splendid at marketing himself, consider that he might not actually be that important to the causes he's been championing. As others have pointed out: if said state actors wanted to hurt Tor and related projects, he'd be pretty far down the list of targets.

There's a more compelling argument: if any of the large state actors were involved, they'd probably have done a more competent job of it. This all sounds pretty amateurish to me.

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#45

Post by golemotron » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 2:54 AM UTC

SNvD7vEJ wrote: post #6

Media & mob justice at it's finest, requiring people to prove their innocence instead of the other way around. Disgusting.

What most people don't see yet is that when enough of these counter-examples to allegations of abuse surface, people won't believe the allegations any more.

Reputation and reputation destruction is a dynamic system that will find equilibrium in a place different from where we are right now.

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#46

Post by middleclick » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 3:00 AM UTC

prutschman wrote: post #25

andy_ppp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these people would be wise to go to the police rather than writing blog posts/twitter comments that imply vague wrong doing without any clear crimes involved.

If no clear crime was committed, why on earth would going to the police have done any good?

I feel for the victims not going to the police, but then my question is what is the alternative?

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#47

Post by syngrog66 » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 3:40 AM UTC

middleclick wrote: post #46

prutschman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If no clear crime was committed, why on earth would going to the police have done any good?

I feel for the victims not going to the police, but then my question is what is the alternative?

If the "victims" don't go to the police, then the alternative is we all slowly devolve into a world of smearing, guilt-upon-accusation, witch hunts, vigilantes, blackmail, shared-make-believe and anarchy.

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#48

Post by A_COMPUTER » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 3:50 AM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #24

rhblake wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the first-person stories of @hypatiadotca [0] and @violetblue [1] suggest more than that. [0] https://hypatia.ca/2016/06/07/he-said-they-said/ [1] https://twitter.com/violetblue/status/740446500891860992 / https://twitter.com/violetblue/status/740446782505779200 / etc. (argh twitter)

I think these people would be wise to go to the police rather than writing blog posts/twitter comments that imply vague wrong doing without any clear crimes involved.

Honeywell stated a couple things that clearly violate consent, and could reasonably be described as rising to the level of legally actionable. I was very critical of some of the weak discounting of the possibility of JTRIG-style character attacks, but when notable, reputable people in the community come forward with specific relevant first-person claims, I believe it's important to take it more seriously.

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#49

Post by syngrog66 » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 4:08 AM UTC

rhblake wrote: post #39

mtgx wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "When I flew away for an appointment, I installed four alarm systems in my apartment," Appelbaum told the paper after discussing other situations which he said made him feel uneasy. "When I returned, three of them had been turned off. The fourth, however, had registered that somebody was in my flat - although I'm the only one with a key. And some of my effects, whose positions I carefully note, were indeed askew. M…

> And other similar and very recent account of the US gov harassing Tor developers: > https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/fbi-harassment.html It could be noted that the core Tor developer (@isislovecruft) who wrote that post has also spoken out against Appelbaum.

can you link to something specific that @isislovecruft said? A specific statement, by him/her, first-person, as an independent direct witness, against Applebaum?

because I did a quick search and saw nothing in their blog or Twitter stream. Instead... I saw a lot of what I expected to see: smoke, emo-drama, innuendo, rumor and SJW brigading.

I'd love to have my views corrected by facts and something concrete. It would help everybody involved in the discussion.

Re: Statement by Jill Bähring Regarding Jacob Appelbaum

#50

Post by tmpanon1234act » Fri, Jun 10, 2016, 4:09 AM UTC

What's especially shameful about all of this is that a ton of smart people rushed to condemn Applebaum before we had a complete accounting. If this many intelligent people can prematurely convict someone in the court of public opinion, what hope is there for the rest of society?