Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#41

Post by sharemywin » Tue, May 31, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

vehementi wrote: post #30

newacct23 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing about specifics that do not make any difference to the overall argument the author is trying to make. UBI for 244 million is still unfeasible. UBI is just a bad idea, jobs in themselves have nice externalities that UBI wont give. People that have jobs generally don't commit crimes. Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society.

Why do they not talk about the tax increase that pays for it? It's supposed to be closer to neutral. I.e. people making $100k get an extra $10k tax burden to cancel out the $10k they just got. Pretty important factor to include in the discussion, yeah?

obviously someone else is going to have to pay for people making under 10k.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#42

Post by cousin_it » Tue, May 31, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

At a minimum, we need free universal healthcare that shouldn't be replaced with basic income, because poor sick people often need more expensive healthcare than a reasonable basic income can pay for. Similar for education, the current system of loans just sucks compared to universal free education which was achieved by the frigging USSR.

Also it seems pointless to give basic income to well-off people. On top of free healthcare and education, why don't we just top up everyone's income to the equivalent of the minimum wage? Sure, that will disincentivize jobs that pay close to minimum wage, but such jobs are dying due to automation anyway, and good riddance.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#43

Post by swalsh » Tue, May 31, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

http://www.nutrition411.com/content/refeeding-syndrome-0

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#44

Post by carapace » Tue, May 31, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

newacct23 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing about specifics that do not make any difference to the overall argument the author is trying to make. UBI for 244 million is still unfeasible. UBI is just a bad idea, jobs in themselves have nice externalities that UBI wont give. People that have jobs generally don't commit crimes. Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society.

> Also a UBI will disincentivize working jobs that are undesirable but are necessary for a functioning society. That's kinda the point. You drive up the cost of undesirable jobs until you find someone who'll work it. If no one wants to work it, you'll need to automate it or do without.

Yes, this! I hate the "But who will pick up the garbage?" argument so much, the lazy thinker who says this is implying that our society only functions if there's an explicit hell waiting for those who fail it. And that's kinda fucked up, eh? If UBI fixed just that it would be worth it, IMHO.

Also, have you ever talked to the people who pick up your garbage?

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#45

Post by witty_username » Tue, May 31, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

Basic income doesn't solve any of this. It just drops a load of money into a person's lap who has no idea what to do with it.

What do you mean by this? Poor people would definitely know what to do with it.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#46

Post by 1123581321 » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #21

This article is yet another example of binary thinking. Basic income could be started at any amount. It won't pay the rent, but an extra $100 a month makes a difference for people living on the edge. The first $100/month will make a bigger difference than anything added on top of that.

The problem is that a very small number of people are on that $100/month edge, a percentage of them will increase their expenses until they are as desperate as they used to be, and the increased taxes to pay this money will put others on the edge. When considering BI, or any large money transfer program, you must consider the entire system, not just the beneficial effects on a small number of people for the first few months.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#47

Post by bradleyjg » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

nullsmack wrote: post #6

The very first argument in the article is flawed which leads me to wonder how much of it is or isn't flawed. It talks about a Universal Basic Income for everyone over 21.. then it complains that would cost 3 trillion dollars for all of the 300 million Americans. According to the Census Bureau as of 2015 there were 321 million Americans and 24% were under 18. No clue how many were under 21. But that still takes it dow…

I did some back of the envelope math several months ago here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10172397

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#48

Post by funkysquid » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #28

Something that is missing from the basic income/poverty debate is the notion of "learned helplessness"; after a long time in poverty, people get used to the lifestyle and have difficulty adjusting to "regular" life. For example, if you've been homeless your entire life, you've never had to lock your apartment door or carry a key around. My partner (a social worker) had a client who's apartment was always getting robb…

"He couldn't hold down a job and regularly missed appointments."

I think this is part of the problem - right now in society, if you can't be on time and hold down a job, you'll go hungry and have no place to live. Basic income removes that harsh penalty, and lets people live regardless of whether they can make an appointment.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#49

Post by weatherlight » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

The way you fund it, of course, is to further tax the higher end of the income bracket. It's an innocuous way of redistributing wealth. It helps everyone but the very wealthiest, which are the ones who need it the least. Jobs are not the answer, at least in my mind. A universal basic income would allow people to spend some time possibly developing a passion that they love, not slaving away at a job which is at best given out of pity, and at worst a waste of time which they are obligated to attend at a negative cost to everybody. A universal basic income is upfront and direct about its purpose.

Re: Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

#50

Post by witty_username » Tue, May 31, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

lossolo wrote: post #25

Problem is with capitalism and it's founders that told us all that you can't live without work. In next decades we will need to change the system diametrical because robots will take all not creative jobs out there. If we want basic pay we will need to tax corporations that use robots at around 70-90%, money from tax will go for basic pay, money from people that receive basic pay will go to corporations etc. Thing th…

If robots take all the jobs, then nobody has to work anymore and everything will be very cheap. Think robot maids, drivers, and robot-cooked meals. People are so used to today's world of not-so-many-robots that people think not having a job is bad.