The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory • Hacker News Board

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#41

Post by schwarrrtz » Sun, May 15, 2016, 10:53 PM UTC

pingec wrote: post #37

bardworx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also funny how they call us an "impoverished country". In my eyes an average Joe has much better quality of life in Slovenia than in the US :). I would say the problems start if you want to me more than the average Joe. Creating labels and positioning the individual who was hurt as a victim, coming from an "impoverished country" is more attractive then reporting a different ("positive") point of view. In defense of…

So how much higher is US minimum wage? Perhaps 100%? Would you agree with someone who earns twice as much as you to automatically call you impoverished? I am no native speaker so I could be wrong, but I have looked up the word on Google. I believe that "impoverished" does imply context eg. [1] and is not simply a comparative word. It implies someone is really poor in a way that seriously affects his well-being, requi…

For me, as a native English speaker, 'impoverished' connotes a significant difference in standard of living relative to what I'm used to. So I would agree with you here - one would have to take the relative purchasing power of the wages into account before characterizing an entire country as impoverished.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#42

Post by x0x0 » Sun, May 15, 2016, 10:53 PM UTC

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #9

ams6110 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I flatly do not believe that Tesla did not know what was going on. The bid being as low as it was means that the savings were coming from somewhere. Presumably the materials used all had specifications so hard to cut corners there. That leaves labor. Come on, maybe they aren't legally responsible but morally and ethically they made a choice here.

It's hard to believe that Tesla didn't become aware of this after a few months. Just like farmers who can't hire american people to pick their crop with backbreaking labor and low wages and who hides from hiring undocumented workers from mexico, they are morally responsible for treating the workers well. US politicians should address this situation by working to eliminate b1 visa fraud. If it turns out not to be ille…

The other way to fix this is to allow liability for labor law and health code violations to pass all the way up the contracting chain. The only reason Tesla doesn't care is they can insulate themselves from liability via the outsourcing relationship; were Tesla liable for law violations, they'd make sure everything was aboveboard. viz labor board ruling McDonalds is jointly liable for wage violations of franchisees. McDonalds will have a newfound interesting in making sure every person working at McDonalds is correctly paid. [1]

[1] http://www.franchisetimes.com/news/NLRB-McDonalds-Joint-Empl...

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#43

Post by manmal » Sun, May 15, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #39

slicktux wrote: post #2

It is a rather complex problem and it needs to be solved, but I do not see how it's Tesla's fault. . . First off Tesla chose Eisenmann for the expansion and in return they subcontracted another company which then brought in the the workers for the illegal work. Given those circumstances I believe Eisenmann knew what was going on if not they would have never made such a low bid, because they would have risked paying o…

Do you think that Tesla, with all their engineering, job costing, materials science, and cost accounting talent, is unable to estimate the work needed to install the paint shop mentioned in the article? There is no "magic pixie dust" that Eisenmann had, that they used to sprinkle over their materials that would make installation of the mechanical systems any less labor-intensive than their competitors. Either Tesla k…

Tesla was just ok with Eisenmann exploiting global wage differences - they didn't necessarily know how low their employees' wages would actually be.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#44

Post by swimfar » Sun, May 15, 2016, 11:55 PM UTC

This isn't a Tesla thing, it's an automotive industry thing (as alluded to in the article). You often see this with foreign car companies, or more specifically, with foreign-based contractors.

Just a little background, first. The car manufacturers often times aren't the ones designing the machines that build their cars. They come up with general plans for the layout and process and then they hire various engineering companies who specialize in that particular manufacturing process. Obviously they work closely with those companies to ensure that the designs meet their requirements.

Those engineering firms will then design, build, and install the equipment. Some of that work is done by sub-contractors. If the engineering company is based outside of the US (in this case, German-based Eisenmann), they are likely to have local workers (nationally or continentally speaking) that they are used to hiring for their projects (because they're familiar with their work, already have contracts set up, have the language issues more or less worked out, etc.). When they get contracts for the US, they are going to want to use the same group of people instead of the more complicated and risky option of trying to build a local team. This is especially true for physical labor (e.g. installation, setup) because you need those people onsite.

So, often times when there's a big automotive construction project you have lots of foreigners happening to show up to the area with tourist visas. The engineering firm provides housing and vehicles so they don't have to worry about that. And they pay them in the country they're based out of.

The manufacturer probably knows it's going on, but they don't ask questions. And I don't think it should necessarily be their responsibility. Sure, if they were held liable they would pay more attention. But you could say the same thing about the contractor as well. From the article, "The company overseeing Tesla’s expansion project — Eisenmann, a German-based manufacturer of industrial systems — also denied in court that it had legal responsibility for Lesnik." Unless someone (anyone in the chain, really) is fined or punished, no one is going bother worrying about it.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#45

Post by djrogers » Mon, May 16, 2016, 12:56 AM UTC

swimfar wrote: post #44

This isn't a Tesla thing, it's an automotive industry thing (as alluded to in the article). You often see this with foreign car companies, or more specifically, with foreign-based contractors. Just a little background, first. The car manufacturers often times aren't the ones designing the machines that build their cars. They come up with general plans for the layout and process and then they hire various engineering…

> This isn't a Tesla thing, it's an automotive industry thing

No, this is a complete failure of the government in upholding it's responsibility 'thing'.

This is entirely a result of greedy politicians taking corporate money to write laws enabling this, encouraging government agencies to look the other way, and they need to be held responsible.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#46

Post by azernik » Mon, May 16, 2016, 1:05 AM UTC

pingec wrote: post #37

bardworx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also funny how they call us an "impoverished country". In my eyes an average Joe has much better quality of life in Slovenia than in the US :). I would say the problems start if you want to me more than the average Joe. Creating labels and positioning the individual who was hurt as a victim, coming from an "impoverished country" is more attractive then reporting a different ("positive") point of view. In defense of…

So how much higher is US minimum wage? Perhaps 100%? Would you agree with someone who earns twice as much as you to automatically call you impoverished? I am no native speaker so I could be wrong, but I have looked up the word on Google. I believe that "impoverished" does imply context eg. [1] and is not simply a comparative word. It implies someone is really poor in a way that seriously affects his well-being, requi…

Only a 45% difference - $7.5 vs. €4.56.

And now that I do a lookup, it's actually very similar to the minimum wage in Wyoming and Georgia.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#47

Post by dang » Mon, May 16, 2016, 2:38 AM UTC

lovich wrote: post #25

Why did the title change? It originally matched the headlines title of "THE HIDDEN WORKFORCE EXPANDING TESLA’S FACTORY" and given that tesla is saying they didnt know about it, that seems more accurate

We took it out as linkbait a la "secret", but since you think it's legit we'll put it back.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#48

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 16, 2016, 2:47 AM UTC

slicktux wrote: post #2

It is a rather complex problem and it needs to be solved, but I do not see how it's Tesla's fault. . . First off Tesla chose Eisenmann for the expansion and in return they subcontracted another company which then brought in the the workers for the illegal work. Given those circumstances I believe Eisenmann knew what was going on if not they would have never made such a low bid, because they would have risked paying o…

[deleted]

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#49

Post by hkmurakami » Mon, May 16, 2016, 3:13 AM UTC

slicktux wrote: post #2

It is a rather complex problem and it needs to be solved, but I do not see how it's Tesla's fault. . . First off Tesla chose Eisenmann for the expansion and in return they subcontracted another company which then brought in the the workers for the illegal work. Given those circumstances I believe Eisenmann knew what was going on if not they would have never made such a low bid, because they would have risked paying o…

It's similar to the Apple-Foxconn situation. Foxconn was abusing its workers and not Apple, but people felt that Apple was at least partly to blame for the situation and had a responsibility to call for improvements.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#50

Post by ncallaway » Mon, May 16, 2016, 3:24 AM UTC

Chronic51 wrote: post #35

pjmorris wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is knowing nothing about how their contractors employ people to Tesla's credit? I'd be gratified to see Musk's attention to detail include focus on details like these.

What else should we pardon the great God, Elon Musk, for? HN is full of fanboys like you. If I said Elon Musk had nothing to do with the SpaceX landings, where is your "he can't pay attention to all detail" comment now?

Did you reply to the wrong comment? Because you're chastising pjmorris for "pardoning" Elon Musk when, in fact, pjmorris was specifically calling Tesla and Elon to task for their lack of oversight.

Your mocking tone makes it hard for me to be empathetic toward you when misunderstandings occur.