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Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

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Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#41

Post by PaulHoule »

emodendroket wrote: post #36
orf wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Boaty McBoatface" sealed the deal for Brexit because it symbolizes what "democracy" is about these days. What does that even mean? I hope you don't honestly think that that poll had any effect on the brexit situation? I tend to side with the bookies over listening to polls, and the bookies odds are on staying[1]. Apart from recent football mishaps they seem to be on the ball, they saw Khan coming a mile off for ex…

I guess what he means is that more substantive issues work the same way as the boat naming thing -- they ask for your vote but then if they don't like the result they'll toss it.

It's not the poll, it is the reaction to the poll. It's the outright insult to the people who participated it and the attitude on the part of management it betrays.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#42

Post by emodendroket »

PaulHoule wrote: post #41
emodendroket wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess what he means is that more substantive issues work the same way as the boat naming thing -- they ask for your vote but then if they don't like the result they'll toss it.

It's not the poll, it is the reaction to the poll. It's the outright insult to the people who participated it and the attitude on the part of management it betrays.

Is that different from what I said?

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#45

Post by humanrebar »

emodendroket wrote: post #36
orf wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Boaty McBoatface" sealed the deal for Brexit because it symbolizes what "democracy" is about these days. What does that even mean? I hope you don't honestly think that that poll had any effect on the brexit situation? I tend to side with the bookies over listening to polls, and the bookies odds are on staying[1]. Apart from recent football mishaps they seem to be on the ball, they saw Khan coming a mile off for ex…

I guess what he means is that more substantive issues work the same way as the boat naming thing -- they ask for your vote but then if they don't like the result they'll toss it.

Good point. I'll be controveraial and point out that there are parallels to Prop 8 in California here. And the immigration legislation in Arizona that was overturned.

Tell me that doesn't feed into the Trump candidacy.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#46

Post by awinter-py »

I like that someone is taking a systems perspective on this but the '26 abandoned cities' stuff doesn't seem relevant.

Yes every underclass represents a threat of revolt. But describing this oligarchy as rich stealing from the poor is not completely accurate.

The mesopotamians had a 'palace economy' where a large portion of the wealth (i.e. grain) was brought to a central city to be redistributed to non-farmers by the priests. (hence the word 'hierarchy'). The current global economy is to some extent a palace economy (explains the higher salaries and prices in cities) but our economies are no longer 70% agricultural, 30% stonework and a small slice 'prayer services'. More of the economic work than ever is concentrated at the 'top' -- maybe not in the top slice but certainly in the top fifth. If the bottom half of mesopotamian society disappeared the priests would starve. If that happened in, say, switzerland their economic metrics would blip up.

Not saying that's a good or a bad thing but it defies the article's definition of oligarchy.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#47

Post by jcranmer »

cm2187 wrote: post #12
raverbashing wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah no, it wasn't rhetorical. Are you referring to the current election? I only see Jeb Bush in the list

Isn't he the son and brother of two former presidents? There is a level of endogamy in american politics which is spectacular, even by european standards.

About a year ago, I came across an article of political dynasties in US politics. The Bushes came in at #7. The Clintons didn't make the list (the requirement for being considered a dynasty was three generations). The top 10, in descending order, were Kennedy, Roosevelt, Rockefeller, Harrison, Frelinghuysen, Adams, Bush, Breckingridge, Taft, Bayard.

Source: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2015/0322/America-s-to...

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#48

Post by a_c_s »

ideonexus wrote: post #23
jessaustin wrote: post #4

1980-2000s: Reagan removes the Fairness Doctrine... TIL Rush Limbaugh will cause the end of the world. Hilarious.

Not the end of the world, but I do see him historically as the beginning of the end for the Republican Party. I was in college when I first heard of Rush Limbaugh. Before him, Republicans were these very stuffy folks like William Buckley Jr, who came to our campus and bored many to tears with highly-intellectual and logical arguments that were extremely challenging and generated a great deal of cognitive dissonance f…

For now though the Republican party controls congress and in 30 states[1] they control both legislative houses and the governorship: for a party that is 'falling apart' they are doing much better than the Democrats.

[1] https://ballotpedia.org/Gubernatorial_and_legislative_party_...

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#49

Post by jbmorgado »

tcoppi wrote: post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

> We have never been more prosperous

That's exactly the problem. For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents. This didn't happen even when after major armed conflicts.

1st world has increasing economic output but most people of the new generation also in the 1st world are starting to live and will live their life in worst conditions than their parents.

These are the most favorable grounds possible for revolution.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#50

Post by actionwords »

ideonexus wrote: post #23
jessaustin wrote: post #4

1980-2000s: Reagan removes the Fairness Doctrine... TIL Rush Limbaugh will cause the end of the world. Hilarious.

Not the end of the world, but I do see him historically as the beginning of the end for the Republican Party. I was in college when I first heard of Rush Limbaugh. Before him, Republicans were these very stuffy folks like William Buckley Jr, who came to our campus and bored many to tears with highly-intellectual and logical arguments that were extremely challenging and generated a great deal of cognitive dissonance f…

Rush limbaugh is viewed as a rambling old idiot by millenial. I know absolutely no one who would spend more than 5 minutes listening to him (i run in fairly youthful conservative circles).
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