Live data from Hacker News

Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

ggr.com

41–50 of 162 posts

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#41
post #4

I'm curious why the author says Linux is "insecure, anti-secure, and anti-privacy software" Can anyone explain this? Also, why OpenBSD specifically, and not FreeBSD for example?

FreeBSD is pretty anti-secure too. https://vez.mrsk.me/freebsd-defaults.txt

BSD Now did a rebuttal in Episode 134 http://www.bsdnow.tv/episodes/2016_03_23-marking_up_the_port...

IMHO, I found it unconvincing. It soured me on the rest of the episode and its not really my watch as soon as its out podcast anymore. I guess since every segment is basically a FreeBSD segment no matter what OS they are talking about, it had to go that way.

YMMV

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#42
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how many software products OpenBSD has contributed back to the overall free software world; things like OpenSSH, OpenSSL, a more secure ntpd and inetd One of them is not like the others -- OpenSSL is not an OpenBSD project and the code quality is markedly different :-)

perhaps jayofdoom meant LibreSSL. and yes, OpenSSL is a bit of a code quality difference than the OpenBSD norm.

Yall don't be too nice to them. The code quality is shit. My favorite quip of all came from Ted Unagnst noticing they did endian-checks in one code that ran very often during use of protocol. He said something along the lines that they hadn't applied any sense to (important issue) but they had you covered if your CPU's endianness changed in mid-operation. No words. :)

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#43
post #29

I am an OpenBSD user, there is no OS I'd rather use currently (obviously) and I am sure there is no OS with a greater focus on security and clean code, the project as a whole deserves a great deal of respect and admiration for setting the bar when it comes to security, and for being the originator of great products that are used outside the boundaries of OpenBSD itself, however (with all due respect) what the author…

"As you have guessed by now I am some kind of allergic to this... those idealistic over-simplifications... drawing everything in black and white..." I avoid oversimplifications, too. Yet, most of what the author wrote was proven by precedent. Only grip I have is calling Linux anti-security and anti-privacy given how much good work in those used the platform. Gotta be a kernel by kernel and distro by distro judgment o…

And I appreciate it, I don't doubt that OS X isn't the best choice, and for sure there is some kind of trade-off going on, most likely, yet I assume a lot of it also has to do with how those products are used, meaning an inexperienced users fall into the pitfalls of maybe any system, while an experienced user will use the product rather differently?

Since you are a security researcher, aren't a lot of people of "your breed" using Macs as well?

As for the OS X security track record I don't claim to be incredibly well versed in that regard, thank you for the insight. But the piece doesn't primarily talk about security flaws, rather about systemic risks in using any sort of proprietary software whatsoever, especially by "evil" corporations like Microsoft and Apple (it might not say that directly, but that's how I conceived it) which I think is far over-emphasized.

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#44

I'm curious why the author says Linux is "insecure, anti-secure, and anti-privacy software" Can anyone explain this? Also, why OpenBSD specifically, and not FreeBSD for example?

I'm lumping Linux in that group because my impression is that Linus is ambivalent about security--it seems to be just another feature to him (see http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/2015/11/05/net-of-... ). Additionally, with most of the popular distros, once I install the OS, I have to spend a bunch of time locking things down before I do anything else, whereas OpenBSD has pretty good defaults that I can build…

Then modify the claim to say "some Linux kernels/distros" instead of Linux as a whole. Meanwhile, thanks to CompSci, there's Linux's (eg Criswell's SVA-OS) and FreeBSD's (eg CheriBSD on CHERI) that run with way more security than OpenBSD. They push the state of the art. So, it's a mixed bag.

OpenBSD is actually no different. The developers care a lot about security and quality. Yet, the mere fact that I see OpenBSD desktops in Google images running shoddy applications shows many OpenBSD users make similar tradeoffs to what you described of Linux camp. It's just the kernel and select userland that gets their attention to quality due to limited staff (and their preferences).

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#45
post #29

I am an OpenBSD user, there is no OS I'd rather use currently (obviously) and I am sure there is no OS with a greater focus on security and clean code, the project as a whole deserves a great deal of respect and admiration for setting the bar when it comes to security, and for being the originator of great products that are used outside the boundaries of OpenBSD itself, however (with all due respect) what the author…

The only thing lacking for me on OpenBSD is it doesn't run Wine. Otherwise I would jump to it in a heartbeat...

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#46
post #29

I am an OpenBSD user, there is no OS I'd rather use currently (obviously) and I am sure there is no OS with a greater focus on security and clean code, the project as a whole deserves a great deal of respect and admiration for setting the bar when it comes to security, and for being the originator of great products that are used outside the boundaries of OpenBSD itself, however (with all due respect) what the author…

I hear what you're saying. For my part, security and privacy are very practical concerns for me...the aren't just an abstract ideal:

When my father-in-law bought a computer from Costco a year ago, it was full of malware from the start. He didn't care about the spyware--it was the constant popups, and the prompts to enter credit card info and login info that was the most worrisome. When my 'mom' sent me an IM message from her Hotmail account, claiming to be somewhere in Europe and needing emergency money, I had to call her up (she was not in Europe), get her to rotate her passwords on a bunch of accounts, work with her work IT team to investigate the security breach, etc. I've had one of my personal OpenBSD servers sucked into a DDOS zombie army (did I mention I'm a security newb?) and had to wipe the thing, rebuild, and ponder my mis-configuration sins. Security is hard enough (for me anyway) as it is without starting on a less than ideal foundation.

Criminals, for the most part, are (just) trying to steal money from people I care about...and when they're lucky enough not to lose their money, it can still cost a lot of time.

States have power over life and death, and there are plenty of examples in the US and elsewhere of bad people in government abusing their power to the detriment of relatively powerless people (and giving all the good people in government a bad name). I don't want to live in a police state, where saying the wrong thing over email can lead to bad things happening to me. We're not there yet (in the US), but we're not pointed in the right direction either. I think FOSS, secure software has a positive, important role to play. It cannot answer the larger political questions, but it can help, if only to buy us time to have the debate before the abuses get too far.

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#47
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on what the alternatives are? The more we all know, the better!

HardenedBSD!

I ran across this the other day. Looks interesting. Does anybody know the general difference in approach between HBSD and OBSD? They both seem to be trying to achieve roughly the same thing (a security-focussed BSD).

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#48
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As you have guessed by now I am some kind of allergic to this... those idealistic over-simplifications... drawing everything in black and white..." I avoid oversimplifications, too. Yet, most of what the author wrote was proven by precedent. Only grip I have is calling Linux anti-security and anti-privacy given how much good work in those used the platform. Gotta be a kernel by kernel and distro by distro judgment o…

And I appreciate it, I don't doubt that OS X isn't the best choice, and for sure there is some kind of trade-off going on, most likely, yet I assume a lot of it also has to do with how those products are used, meaning an inexperienced users fall into the pitfalls of maybe any system, while an experienced user will use the product rather differently? Since you are a security researcher, aren't a lot of people of "your…

"Since you are a security researcher, aren't a lot of people of "your breed" using Macs as well?"

I use Linux, BSD's, and custom systems. From what I've gathered, the people using Mac's do it for usability and apps more than anything. The Mac OS is pretty, well-designed components for GUI/desktop on top of a hybrid between a microkernel and UNIX (BSD). Let's ignore their bad choice of microkernel. The real benefit is you get a desktop with comparable usability to Windows, you can pull out command line for full power of the UNIX underneath, it's overall more reliable/consistent than Linux on desktop side, and there's plenty of apps from vendors who target Windows + Mac but not Linux.

So, that's the overall value equation. A UNIXy OS with many apps and nice interface. I considered attempting to secure its foundation, Darwin, at one point but it's a hodgepodge of crap thrown together. Clever way to get a system out the door for Jobs back in the NEXT days. Not so good later on when one is improving foundations. :)

Note: Addressing your other point in a new comment as I can never remember length restriction.

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#49
post #29

I am an OpenBSD user, there is no OS I'd rather use currently (obviously) and I am sure there is no OS with a greater focus on security and clean code, the project as a whole deserves a great deal of respect and admiration for setting the bar when it comes to security, and for being the originator of great products that are used outside the boundaries of OpenBSD itself, however (with all due respect) what the author…

The only thing lacking for me on OpenBSD is it doesn't run Wine. Otherwise I would jump to it in a heartbeat...

I don't know it from the top of my head, but FreeBSD runs Wine iirc and afaik FreeBSD 11 (I know, not OpenBSD) will introduce bhyve, a hugely hyped hypervisor/virtual machine manager supporting among other things Windows Operating Systems, also there should be some improvements to the Linux Emulation Layer.

Also there is this https://github.com/tony/steam-freebsd-client but not sure how good it works.

This might or might not be of interest to you, since chances are it might I thought I'd share. I don't think FreeBSD is much more secure (if any) than some of the better GNU/Linux distributions though. So it's easier to just run Gentoo or something similar.

Re: Why OpenBSD Is Important to Me

#50
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NX enforced kernel W^X, SMEP/SMAP, always-on stack protector and a limited attack surface (..say, from pledge(2)), only serve to make such theoretical attacks impractical against OpenBSD.

No. Those are useful countermeasures, but kernel exploits for OpenBSD are neither theoretical nor impractical.

Even as an OpenBSD fan, I'm not sure why tptacek was downvoted here. W^X etc. make it harder to write an exploit, but sufficiently-bad bugs can still yield arbitrary code execution. (Or confused-deputy problems allowing escalation to root, etc.; there's more than one way to pwn a box.)

And - architecturally - OpenBSD's kernel isn't that different from Linux, both being UNIX-style kernels; to the extent that OpenBSD's kernel has better security than Linux, it's mostly because OpenBSD tends to have fewer (and, sometimes, better-considered) features.

(There's an interesting argument to be had about Linux+grsecurity vs. OpenBSD - focusing on having some cutting-edge parts vs. solid engineering throughout - but that's not the argument we're having.)

Post reply on HN